Sharpening

[Noel]

These http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20440
Is it worth getting the 800 AND the 1200? Will there be that much cutting difference between them?

TIA

Noel

 

[Chris Knight]

Noel,

My strong advice is not to touch them with a barge pole. I bought Spyderco ceramic stones and they are not at all flat. I have read posts from quite a few disappointed users to the same effect.

Because they are so hard you need a diamond stone to flatten them. I left mine on the shelf till I started carving and found that for very fine, small carving tools they did the job as I don't need a wide flat stone as one would for say a plane iron.

To answer your question, yes, there is a noticeable difference between the grits in use.

 

[Alf]

Yep, there is a difference, but I wouldn't really recommend getting them at all. They're very slow cutting, but worse, often they're not flat (neither of mine were to start with). They're a real bear to flatten, being so hard and all; I resorted to using a coarse DMT, and it took forever. If they were as good as Axminster claims for them, everyone would have them - as it is they're rarely even mentioned. 'Nuff said? :|

Cheers, Alf

 

[Noel]

OK, that's clear enough. Any opinions on Shapton stones, apart from the price? Give up waterstones, messy, too much space etc, but willing to go back to them if best option. What are your current sharpening regimes?

Noel

 

[MikeW]

Hi Noel,

The Professional series Shaptons are great stones. They cut well, last a long time. I have a 2000 and 8000 Shapton. Get the cast iron flattening plate with the appropriate powders for truing the Shaptons. Or you can spring for their diamond reference plate--but it is really costly.

I also like my 4000 grit King waterstone which I had prior to getting the Shaptons, which is why I do not have a Shapton between the 2000 and 8000.

I use diamond plates lower than the 2000 Shapton. Once they are wore out I'll probably get either the 1000 or 1500 Shapton, but will still use the DMTs lower than that.

 

[Chris Knight]

Noel,

Mainly as follows for plane irons and chisels:

1. Tormek if badly dinged edge or when making an old rust-hunt find usable.

2. DMTs (I have the black, blue, red and green) . The red and the green will get a good edge on most things that have already had their initial sharpening. I do have a wide 8000 grit waterstone that I normally use for a plane iron's final sharpening in conjunction with DC's ruler trick. The black DMT gets used mainly for initial flattening of backs. I don't use the blue very much at all.

3. Stropping on something suitable with a compound. (I am using my el-cheapo power strop a lot for this now as it is very quick and especially good for touching up chisels. If I don't use this, I will generally use a piece of maple.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... ower+strop

Like you, I find waterstones for everything far too messy for my taste - I might use them if I had a sink with running water close at hand although the constant need for flattening also bugs me.

The very best edge I can get comes from a translucent Arkansas stone but I reserve this for my carving chisels. A close second is a black "surgical" Arkansas. These stones run about the same as the DMT Duosharps so you want to be sure which system you are going for unless you want to take over my place as curator of the National Collection of Sharpening systems.

 

[beech1948]

Noel,

I have just about recovered from the horror of the Rexon Wg180a wet grinder.

I lost my two favourite stones due to a workshop crash...well a 40 ton lorry drove over them outside the workshop..I was just cleaning out the workshop/garage..bloody builders.

I now have the following:-
Tormek...I surrendered and got one. Used it to improve 40 + chisels and 8 plane blades ...works very well. It was Philly's reasoning which led me to this and also my increasing arthritus. Sound decision though.

I have a 320 grit and 2000 grit Shapton as well as a 6000 grit Shapton to finish on. The 320 gets used to clear small knocks into small or odd shaped blades. The Tormek 220/1000 does the primary bevels. The Shapton 2000 does the final primary bevel polish ( not really needed) and the initial secondary bevel, the 6000 does the final polish on the secondary bevel. I have not tried a Tiertiary bevel yet as there seems to be no need. I use an Axminster honeing guide..with wide wheel.

I will be making a stroping device to put in my bench drill on which I will use autosol or a metal polisher soap. I used to use a leather strop with a green soap but have decided that the Shapton 6000 is superior.

Shapton stones are flat, hardwearing, cut quickly and very good but expensive. They produce an end result which is probably no better than King stones though.

I have not tried ceramic stones yet but see no real advantage there. I prefer waterstones to oilstones but you could get a good edge with simple oil stones bought cheaply at Screwfix or Axminster. Its all in the mind. A carpenter friend of mine sharpens his tools on a large flat rock outside his workshop....his edges are very sharp...its all in the mind you see.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Beech1948 wrote:

I will be making a stroping device to put in my bench drill on which I will use autosol or a metal polisher soap. I used to use a leather strop with a green soap but have decided that the Shapton 6000 is superior.

Do a search for my belt sander grinder jig. I use the sanding disk for stropping/final honing. I much prefer honing on a flat disk to a wheel since there is less risk of dubbing an edge. My current honing disk is made out of a hook-and-look sanding disk with a glued on layer of chamois leather. I use Veritas green rouge on this. It is just fantastic and, if you get the opportunity to try this out, do it. You will not be disappointed.

I have been using the King 8000 Gold waterstone for the past month and am very pleased with it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Alf]

Tsk. A Mod and not using the search facility... [-X A couple of threads here and here. The latter includes some extra search ideas... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Noel]

Searched through that and much more more this morning, perhaps I should have mentioned. But thanks Chris, Mike W and Beech et al.

Rgds

Noel

 

[engineer one]

hi there i'm new here, and like many of a certain age, returning to hand tools after some years of power tool cabinets etc.
so like every one i have reviewed the various tool sharpening systems.
bought and tried many, and am still left with some questions.

1/ some tools, say veritas talk about have a preservative on their surfaces,
then they talk about using mineral spirits to remove same. so in uk we do not seem to have mineral spirits available, what do you use instead?

2/ when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.

3/ i have a tormek which is great, and does a good job, particularly in retrieving old knackered tools. these days, many new tools do not seem too square either so as well as getting them straight and sharp, does anyone have a quick and cheerful jig for ensuring the cutting face is square????

4/ i find that using a king stone after an initial hone on the leather wheel gets a better and smoother rear surface, good mirror!!!

5/ why do suppliers of water stones not give some info within their items for first time users? whatever else you say about DMT, they always give some advice.

6/ final thought for this time, lots of talk in mags about flattening planes etc using "sand paper", don't really understand this since surely metal should be flattened with metal working papers, ie emery and wet and dry?
in my experience many of the silicon oxide papers have very large grit.
other problem is of course how do you decide which grits relate to each other seems every country has its own standard.

7. whoops, forgot. have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???

thanks for the time, hope this helps us all.
paul

 

[Philly]

Welcome aboard Paul!
See if I can help.....
1: That is US speak for white spirits.
2:the black scum is the metal you are removing. Wash it away with extra water.
3: The standard chisel holder jig should produce a square edge as long as the sides are not tapered. Just ensure both knobs are tightened EVENLY or you will have it sharpened out of square.
5: It is a bit poor, I agree! Must be a Japanese thing where they expect if you are buying them you know what they are for. Or maybe everyone in Japan is taught how to use them in Kindergarten?? :lol: :lol: Just joking, there....
6: Wet n' Dry paper is what is being used, don't worry. Just a misnomer again. Oh, and Axminster sell it in grades up to 2500 grit-very fine!!!
7: Need Alf or Bugbear for this one as mine just sits on the shelf.....
Best regards
Philly

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Paul

You wrote:

when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.

The "black type of scum" is the steel filings that were previously part of your blade. Abrasive materials have a habit of attacking steel thingies this way . Best that you do not do this any more. Alternatively, you can just wipe it off with a bit of water.

many new tools do not seem too square either so as well as getting them straight and sharp, does anyone have a quick and cheerful jig for ensuring the cutting face is square????

Try the new LV Honing Guide!

have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???

Mmm. The #93 is a shoulder plane with a straight blade, the #39 (in case you are reversed the numbers) is a dado plane, also with a straight blade.. do you want to check that number again ... #45, #50, #55 ..?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[DaveL]

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the forum.

I think you will find that what they call mineral spirits the other side of the pond, we call white sprit.

As for flatterning plane soles, you will find that 'sand paper' is a generic name used for abrasive paper, most of which has nothing to do with the beach. :shock: I use aluminium oxide paper that comes in rolls from Screwfix. 8)

I have a combination plane that still needs cleaning and sharpening, I think we need a sharpening slip stone that matches the bead in the cutter, no doubt Alf will be along to put me right if thats not how its done.

 

[Alf]

hi there i'm new here... am still left with some questions.

Welcome, Paul, and ask away.

1/

That one's been covered.

2/ when using some metals on some japanese water stones there seems to be a black type of scum developed on the stone. what is this and how do we avoid it.

While amused at the obvious responses, you might also be having trouble with mould on your stones maybe? I don't use them, but I think a drop of bleach in your stone pond is supposed to help?

3/ i have a tormek

I don't, so "pass"

4/ i find that using a king stone after an initial hone on the leather wheel gets a better and smoother rear surface, good mirror!!!

Just out of interest, what grit?

5/ why do suppliers of water stones not give some info within their items for first time users? whatever else you say about DMT, they always give some advice.

Wouldn't help anyway - they'd be in Japanese... :wink:

6/ final thought for this time, lots of talk in mags about flattening planes etc using "sand paper", don't really understand this since surely metal should be flattened with metal working papers, ie emery and wet and dry?

Sloppy nomenclature. :roll:

in my experience many of the silicon oxide papers have very large grit.
other problem is of course how do you decide which grits relate to each other seems every country has its own standard.

Wet 'n' Dry for fine grades. Try Aluminium Zirconia belts for coarser grits if you have a lot of material to remove.

7. whoops, forgot. have a stanley 93 plough plane, any bright ideas on how to sharpen the inner curves on the beading cutters???

I think we have a model number typo, but for beading cutters a slip stone or abrasive wrapped round an appropriately sized dowel - use a curve slightly tighter than the cutter and try to avoid making a secondary bevel.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

I think we have a model number typo, but for beading cutters a slip stone or abrasive wrapped round an appropriately sized dowel - use a curve slightly tighter than the cutter and try to avoid making a secondary bevel.

I recommend a LONG dowel - the length makes the angle much more controllable. Any one who can sharpen with a 2" slip stone and not dub the bevel is a genius!

BugBear

 

[Alf]

Any one who can sharpen with a 2" slip stone and not dub the bevel is a genius!

Why, thank y-

Oh wait, no, I can't. Good tip. D'you take the blade to the abrasive, or the abrasive to the blade? Just w'ndrin'.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Not that I'm BB...

Once the profile is sharpened--I hold the blade, profile up, in my carvers vice with its edge pointing towards me and usually use a set of DMT conical diamond hones or a plain stone into the edge of the blade--I only hone the back on a 4000 King stone during use. This replenishes the edge quite well until the next full sharpening is needed.

btw, Shapton has slips of nearly any size you need that you can grind to fit various profiles.

Wood molding planes where the profile has to match precisely I usually go quite some time before altering the profile in a full sharpening.

I usually reestablish the profile with the blade in the plane, plane held in a vise, blade held snug using the blade's wedge hand tight and use conical diamond hones. While working on the profile I loosen the wedge and slide the blade back in to see if I am keeping the profile.

 

[Alf]

Not that I'm BB...

Nobody's perfect, Mike... :lol:

Once the profile is sharpened--I hold the blade, profile up, in my carvers vice with its edge pointing towards me and usually use a set of DMT conical diamond hones or a plain stone into the edge of the blade

Yeah, pretty much what I do. Although sometimes I get a better result with the abrasive in the vice and taking the blade to it. Seems to vary from one time to another, which I can't explain at all. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

hi guys, thanks the quick replies, and some if not all of the info.
seems a good forum 8)

re the scum, think you are all wrong, but. i bought a new white smooth water stone at ally pally, and used it once, as told how, and immediately
got this scum. i feel it may be related to the preservatives used on new tools rather than metal filings, and i am certain that it is not a fungal infection. will check more, but since it is so fine, it seems there is another answer, maybe we all need to consider it.

as for the sandpaper etc, i have also been using emery, interesting, many stories about how it is no longer made, seems rather like mdf being banned in the usa, one of those stories used by a manufacturer who wants to promote a new product. i find when finishing the bottom of my planes, really smooth emery, say 4000 gives a great shine.
as for the polish after honing on a tormek i have the smoothest king stone bought from axminster in a dual pack with an 800 or so stone. getting a bit old and battered, aren't we all, but seems good to me. :lol:

finally re the plough, sitting here with the wallets i got and inside are a stanley part number 12-390 1 1/2 things, plus about 4 different sized 1/8th, 1/2 beading type cutters with the slot in the side at one end which moves the cutter up and down my plough. i understand why people have them on the shelf, but don't use, but surely sometimes you want a little less dust and noise??

thanks again,
paul