Sharpening

[MikeW]

Hi Paul,

The LN 4 1/2 and the LV LA smoother were both more than flat, at least on a granite reference plate they both produced an even scratch pattern right off using 320 wet/dry paper.

The LV #6 which has the frog as part of the sole was actually proud (stuck below) the sole of the plane by just enough that it produced a scratch pattern that revealed it was alternately hitting the toe and the heel while hitting the part of the frog that is suppose to be level with the sole.

But, it only took maybe 5-10 minutes tops starting at 80 and going up through the grits (120, 180, 220, 320) to produce an even pattern on the sole.

All that to say, if mine had been ever so slightly above the sole *and* using first 320 grit paper the rest of the sole had even scratches I would have stopped right there, disassembled the plane, cleaned it well, lightly oiled it and put it back together.

In other words, as Derek said, directly behind the blade is not terribly important.

Have fun!

 

[engineer one]

have checked out a couple more of the posts on sharpening, and thought i would add another 2 pennorth.

i use a tormek, being someone who has other things to do, i find it a valuable tool, recently sharpened a bahco large chisel, after making a shiny back, found it very useful for chopping off large bits of mdf when back cutting skirting. stays sharp some time too.
i see many people question the value of shiny surfaces, and wonder whether any real scientific work has gone into discovering whether a shiny back actually has any value. lots of work in american mags about for instance dowels over biscuits, but so far only hearsay about sharpening.

my engineering background suggests that polishing will make life easier, but has anyone actually tested it with measuringdevices.

as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine, remember , japaneses tools have two kinds of metal, hence the lack of need for shine.
or are we all really just over examining our navels???
paul

 

[MikeW]

...major snip...
or are we all really just over examining our navels???
paul

Hi Paul,

Maybe, maybe not. The real test is simply how does it cut? For myself, if I can take a softwood such as pine or fir and shave a thin shaving without tearout off the end of the board, I could care less how much shine it has.

Initial cut and edge durability are more important to me. Next is how quickly can I restore/hone the edge--which is why I (mostly) prefer high carbon steel for my plane blades.

But it is important for some and it is most often achievable regardless of the type of steel. I'm just lazy :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

have checked out a couple more of the posts on sharpening, and thought i would add another 2 pennorth.

i use a tormek, being someone who has other things to do, i find it a valuable tool, recently sharpened a bahco large chisel, after making a shiny back, found it very useful for chopping off large bits of mdf when back cutting skirting. stays sharp some time too.
i see many people question the value of shiny surfaces, and wonder whether any real scientific work has gone into discovering whether a shiny back actually has any value. lots of work in american mags about for instance dowels over biscuits, but so far only hearsay about sharpening.

my engineering background suggests that polishing will make life easier, but has anyone actually tested it with measuringdevices.

as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine, remember , japaneses tools have two kinds of metal, hence the lack of need for shine.
or are we all really just over examining our navels???
paul

Paul

generally, the shiny back is not quoted in relation to absolute flatness. The point behind a shiny back is that the scratches (there are always scratches) are as small as possible which then allows a very sharp and even edge to be honed on the cutting face.

With a chisel, the back must clearly be flat to allow it to register against the wood when paring etc., thus the entire back is generally polished.

With a plane iron, only the 1mm or so of the back of the blade near the cutting edge needs to be polished as there is no registering of the blade against the wood when you use the blade - DCs ruler trick.

as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine, remember , japaneses tools have two kinds of metal, hence the lack of need for shine.
or are we all really just over examining our navels???

I do not understand this comment. I have 8 japanese chisels from 3 manufacturers and each came with an absolute immaculate mirror polish on the back of the blade

 

[Philly]

as for the japanese being unconcerned about shine

Japanese waterstones don't always produce a mirror shine (something more akin to a dull grey) but don't misinterpret this as dull. The waterstones cut with a more consistent scratch pattern-it just doesn't "look" as shiny.
I believe Keith S has been doing some serious sharpening research recently and came to this very result-maybe he can enlighten us further?
Cheers
Philly

 

[Sharpdon]

I agree shiny is not a specific requirement, as it often masks a rounded edge. Japanese masters want to see the fine scratches to the edge of the cutting tool, so they know the condition of their tool. I did some research (and more is in process) about the use of Silicon Carbide in sharpening, the Tormek ground and stropped edge, and water stones, compared to the edges I achieve with the Lap-Sharp system. Pictures of the results may be seen in a paper at http://www.woodartistry.com/Sharpening%20Process2.pdf
The proof to me is also in the cutting action of the tool. For me, achieving shavings of .001 is fine enough. I can easily do that with a 1 micron edge finish.

 

[MikeW]

Hi Shardon,

Are you affiliated by chance with Lap-Sharp?

I have read the "paper" you refer to. I assume the results of the Lap-Sharp are unbiased, but it is an advertisement of sorts, isn't it? I'm not so sure of the results and comments concerning the other methods, however.

There is at least one or two other vendors there that contribute on the forum and I both appreciate their contributions and the fact they identify themselves in their sig lines as such.

Not necessary to identify oneself as such, but it does make the reader aware of the affiliation for fairly processing the information.

Hey, aren't you glad you don't have to pay for my opinion? :lol:

 

[Alf]

The proof to me is also in the cutting action of the tool. For me, achieving shavings of .001 is fine enough. I can easily do that with a 1 micron edge finish.

1 micron. That's, what, somewhere between a 6000 and 8000 waterstone? Well yeah, I should hope that would be sharp enough. I can get sub 0.001 shavings with the edge from an old natural oilstone, which is sure to be less fine than that. :wink:

Mike, fair point there. I'd made the connection, but it's as well for all readers to be aware.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Noel]

"Not necessary to identify oneself as such, but it does make the reader aware of the affiliation for fairly processing the information"

I'm with you Mike on this and Alf. Don, maybe a clearer ID would be fairer.
Having said that all your contributions and points of view are more than welcome.

Noel

PS Maybe change Windsor to Windsor, Ca. in your profile. I'm sure you wouldn't want some readers to think you're from Windsor ,Berks, UK.....

 

[Sharpdon]

Fair enough. I have updated my profile to show Windsor, CA. Yes, I designed and manufacture the Lap-Sharp, but my input about sharpening is based upon what I have learned in research, not to promote the Lap-Sharp or any tool on a forum. I don't think that is the place to promote ones products, unless specifically asked about some feature or comparison. Even then, I prefer to send a private message.

There are many ways to achieve sharp tools. I spent years doing it with water stones. I wanted a method that was faster, but gave the same or better results, but I have a fair size collection of tools I want sharp. Not everyone needs a powered sharpening system. The paper I wrote shows some sharpening faults and suggests ways to correct them, especially with scary sharp. There is much good information on forums, but also some that leads one to what I consider poor results. I am still continuing my research, and will be glad to share the results when completed. Accurate information on sharpening will save woodworkers time and provide satisfactory results with whatever method they choose. I for one am working to contribute to that objective.

An 8000 (JIS) water stone is 1.2 microns, so 1 micron surface does enable one to easily achieve sub .001 shavings, if the bevel was not rounded in the sharpening process.

 

[MikeW]

Fair enough. I have updated my profile to show Windsor, CA.

Hi Shardon,

Like Alf, I knew who you were. Thank you for altering your profile to reflect where you are.

Yes, I designed and manufacture the Lap-Sharp, but my input about sharpening is based upon what I have learned in research, not to promote the Lap-Sharp or any tool on a forum. I don't think that is the place to promote ones products, unless specifically asked about some feature or comparison. Even then, I prefer to send a private message...

And a darn fine looking machine it is. I own a Tormek that I use for regrinding angles and bevels that I muck up by quickly honing by hand. Also, my wife is a turner and she uses it a lot. It works very well for her work.

When I purchased my Tormek, cost was not an issue. Had I known about Lap-Sharp then I certainly would have investigated it. I do like horizontal platter sharpening systems in principle. But the ones available at the time were either limited in their functionality, expensive or a hassle to replace the wheels, or like the other current horizontal systems avalable a little too light-duty for day in day out use.

My opinion concerning representing information about your product is go ahead and do it. Look at the signature line in the message from Terry Smart of Chestnut Products in the link below.

While I cannot tell you how to represent yourself, his signature line is open and fair. He also gives good advice as I assume you will.

http://forums.ukworkshop.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5456&start=0

Again, thank you for joining us and we look forward to your input.

 

[Anonymous]

Don

I read the "paper" and it is pure advertising. I also visited your website and wondered why it is devoid of pricing? Particularly for the abrasive sheets which I imagine are consumables?

 

[MikeW]

Don

I read the "paper" and it is pure advertising. I also visited your website and wondered why it is devoid of pricing? Particularly for the abrasive sheets which I imagine are consumables?

Hi Tony,

I'm sure Sharpdon will be along sooner or later. My understanding is the stuff is sold through the 3 distributors on the site.

Here's a link to Japan Woodworker for the prices of everything...
http://www.thejapanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13107

 

[Sharpdon]

Tony: See the page on abrasives for the pricing.
http://www.woodartistry.com/Lap-SharpAbrasives.htm

Mike is also correct, that the Japan Woodworker and Woodworker's Supply also have the abrasive prices listed.

I don't see what you see in the article I wrote, except for the very last section, where I provide some comparisons of the Lap-Sharp. The entire rest of the article can be used for improving any method of sharpening mentioned.

 

[MikeW]

...I don't see what you see in the article I wrote, except for the very last section, where I provide some comparisons of the Lap-Sharp. The entire rest of the article can be used for improving any method of sharpening mentioned.

Shardon, the above is not accurate.

The paper is flawed in its criteria, its subjective prejudiced viewpoint, and the fact it was authored by the seller. Take a read through L. Lee's book on sharpening. I think he does a good job of keeping things in perspective.

I took less than 5 minutes to mark-up the "paper" in Acrobat and add a few notes to illustrate the paragraph above. Do you want me to email it to you?

 

[engineer one]

gee guys did not expect to start ww3/4 or 5.
however it does express the major problem for all newer, or less
frequent users of woodworking products, there are so many new and
different sharpening systems, that were we to buy and use them all,
we would never get any work done, wood or other types, including
pleasing the govt with their red tape.

if you have the time after originally sharpening your tools to go the
waterstone route every time, then those methods are i guess good,
but if my recent experience post tormek is anything to go by, then the time saved in resharpening is worth the money spent on buying the system.

as for the comment about the japanese, that i made, on another link people are talking about japanese woodworkers not being very happy with shiny backs, and i wonder how much of this is to do with the old
japanese technique of one law for internal use, and another for export where the customers can be convinced to pay more for a shiny object???

not a complaint just a comment. seems to me the appropriate way of sharpening is to have a tool which does the job you want when you want it too, and which takes little re-fettling to bring back to top condition.
the biggest gripe now seems to be finding new tools which do not need major fettling. fine when they are new and unbranded, but major names and cost, that should be a no-no, but then we would have to shoot all the accountants.

thanks again for interesting and informative comments.
all the best
paul
ps mike w, must get my rat working soon too.

 

[MikeW]

gee guys did not expect to start ww3/4 or 5.
however it does express the major problem for all newer, or less
frequent users of woodworking products, there are so many new and
different sharpening systems, that were we to buy and use them all,
we would never get any work done,...

Ah Paul, there's not a war. Certainly you didn't cause anything--other than encouraging people to respond.

I think that sharpening is like most of woodworking. Play with a couple methods for accomplishing what you need, pick one and work with it for some time.

Any sharpening method will work using about any stone/grinder/sandpaper/etc. The thing is, in general they don't all work for a particular person. Begin with what you have or can get on the cheap. Stick with it long enough to form your own opinion. If you need to at that time, move on to something else.

If you can, visit another woodworker. Watch them using their method and or tools. Give it a try with one of your own tools with them helping you learn what it is they are doing.

It's not a race. You have plenty of time and it is almost guaranteed you'll go through a couple methods and tools for sharpening over your lifetime.

It all comes down to this. Can I, over time and through practice, get results that are acceptable to me?

 

[Anonymous]

Tony: See the page on abrasives for the pricing.
http://www.woodartistry.com/Lap-SharpAbrasives.htm

Mike is also correct, that the Japan Woodworker and Woodworker's Supply also have the abrasive prices listed.

I don't see what you see in the article I wrote, except for the very last section, where I provide some comparisons of the Lap-Sharp. The entire rest of the article can be used for improving any method of sharpening mentioned.

Thanks Don

I would suggest you add pricing VERY clearly on the site. I am not alone in quickly leaving a site where there is no price mentioned with the thought 'if they can't be bothered to tell me the price, then I can't be bothered to buy it'. I carry this to shops too, no price on display=no sale to yours truly :wink:

For what it's worth, I like the look of the product but suspect the lack of price indicates that I could not afford it

 

[engineer one]

more thoughts about sharpening since it seems to be like the fisherman's tale, it gets more distorted by the telling.
as posted earlier, i recently did a deal with a mate who is a chippy and whose marples chisels were not lasting the pace. i sold him some dutch ones i had bought as remainder stock sharpened on my tormek 2006.
he has now bought some more from me, because they have lasted since just before my last post.
so i wonder whether some of it is to do with cabinetmakers wanting a "Perfect finish" whilst a chippy just wants to cut a number of hinge recessess for the longest time between re-sharpening.

i have recently read the DC article in the american magazine popular woodworking about putting curves on blades by hand, any bright ideas
about doing it effectively on the tormek?
I also read the report in the english mag which had good reports on the tormek also. having just spent this weekend flattening, then sharpening and honing about 15 blades, my hands ache, but the tormek work does leave me at least with a good blade that cuts what i want . re-sharpening will i think now be easier, but it was a pain.

steps. initial flattening on side of tormek.
2/coarse waterestone. 3/ king 6000.
then 4/ sharpening on tormek stone,
5. wire edge removal, and rear polish on tormek honing wheel
6. polish of cutting face.
then having figured where the bits go on my LN low angle planes, nice thin shavings with little effort for this old lazy so and so. but then i am not a full time professional. need to earn money too.

seems to me what this shows is that time is valuable a commodity and sharpening should take as little as possible allowing for the results you want.

thanks again for the help guys
paul
:lol:

 

[Alf]

Scribing stuff from this thread now here.

Winding sticks here.

Cheers, Alf