Sharpening

[paulrbarnard]

Yes I know you can but you have to choose to do it and think about it. Or buy yet another gadget add-on. Or even break the bank with a set of "Odate Crowning Plates" £100 each https://www.popularwoodworking.com/toolreviews/odate_crowning_plate_sharpening_stones/
Freehand on a typical oil stone you are very likely to get a camber whether you like it or not. You might not be aware of the need, but luckily you get one anyway!

So what your saying is you can’t sharpen a non cambered blade…

 

[Amplidyne]

Obviously not a first year apprentice…

Depends on how "sharp a tool" they are I suppose?

 

[Amplidyne]

I don't do much woodwork these days. I've become allergic to wood dust, particularly hardwood. Probably become sensitised.
So I came to my "rough" smoother to trim up some ends of some decent softwood I was using yesterday. Looked at the blade for the first time in ages, it was all OK been stored indoors, but the blade really wants regrinding. I wanted to use it, so a couple of licks on a fine Trend diamond stone, and a quick strop on a handy bit of softwood, brought it up to sharpness good enough to take shavings off the end grain of softwood. Job done.
I'll grind the blade when I have a minute.
I want to do the job, not fiddle about with jigs and machines that don't IMHO do a good job of real world sharpness anyway.
It's a woodworking plane. Not a helical gear cutter for a mill. Hand sharpening should be sufficient in 99% of cases.

 

[mudman]

Interesting jig. Very simple and probably very quick to use. I can see some issues, the stone will be worn on the edge unless it is moved over to spread wear but then you get the risk of the stone tipping and rounding the bevel.

 

[Jacob]

So what your saying is you can’t sharpen a non cambered blade…

Nope. I can sharpen a straight edge if I choose to. The secret is to look at what you are doing and adjust accordingly. It's a useful crafty trick in woodwork and many other areas. Not many people know this!

 

[JSW]

I swear you're getting more sarcastic by the day @Jacob

 

[paulrbarnard]

Nope. I can sharpen a straight edge if I choose to. The secret is to look at what you are doing and adjust accordingly. It's a useful crafty trick in woodwork and many other areas. Not many people know this!

And there was me thinking you have to keep looking at the camera to engage with your audience at least that’s what all the woodworkers I see keep doing.

 

[Jacob]

I swear you're getting more sarcastic by the day @Jacob

Years of practice!
But it really is an issue - it come up all the time; people ask about design details, how to make a table etc. and one has to suggest that they go and look at a table! There's usually one or two in the vicinity!
Comes up often if you forget to measure something for a job or forget to look at it and hazard a guess. Can be out by a large factor - that door jamb you guess to be 3x2" turns out to be 4x6" and so on.
Looking at things, or how your job is progressing, could be very useful, even for modern sharpeners with every gadget under the sun!

 

[M_Chavez]

We need an AI solution to sharpening tools.
Especially them card scrapers.

 

[mudman]

So I asked Microsoft's one that and got this:

AI solutions for sharpening tools can vary depending on the type of tool you're referring to. Here are a few examples:

1. Knife and Blade Sharpening: AI systems can be used to automate the sharpening process for knives and blades. These systems can store and recall the unique requirements for various knife types, adjusting the sharpening angle and technique accordingly. This ensures each blade receives the specific care it needs, enhancing its performance and longevity
   
   
2. Image Sharpening: AI-powered software can enhance the clarity and detail of digital images. These tools use advanced algorithms to analyze and restore lost information, resulting in sharper and more visually appealing images. Examples include Topaz Sharpen AI and Luminar Neo
   
   
   
3. Industrial Tool Sharpening: In manufacturing, AI can be integrated into CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machines to optimize the sharpening of industrial tools like drill bits and saw blades. AI algorithms can monitor the wear and tear on tools and automatically adjust the sharpening process to maintain precision and efficiency.

 

[JSW]

But it really is an issue - it come up all the time; people ask about design details, how to make a table etc. and one has to suggest that they go and look at a table! There's usually one or two in the vicinity!

Yebbut, people are lazy, so you get this instead

So I asked Microsoft's one that and got this:

Honestly, you couldn't make it up!

 

[mark w]

There are very few uses where a plane blade with straight edge is essential, if any, (within reason).

All rebate type planes require straight edges, match planing requires a straight edge, oh and let's not forget chisels.

 

[Jacob]

All rebate type planes require straight edges,

Yes no problem. But straightish will do. The typical camber curve on a jack plane would only show as a tiny fraction of a mm at narrow width of a rebate plane.

match planing requires a straight edge,

Not at all. Depends on your technique. Mine is to square/straighten edges as per normal, (machine or hand) but then to match plane each joint e.g. a table top, stand each board in the vice and sit the next one on vertically, one pair at a time to see how they fit, check for flatness with a straight edge, then plane to match perfectly by taking off a little here and a little there. The camber is particularly useful here as you can plane to one side or the other to alter a slight bevel either way.
I find this much easier than trying to get every edge dead straight and square before trying to join them (if that's how others do it, I don't know). Have to mark them, as any swapped around edges almost certainly would not fit each other

oh and let's not forget chisels.

Chisels don't need to be perfectly square. Why would they?
The obsession with perfect squareness/flatness/angles is not solved by using jigs and precision approaches, quite the opposite it is caused and made worse by them - you can't easily sharpen anything if it is not already close to the parameters of the modern sharpening kit, as yer man points out with his fancy jig in the video - you have to adjust your funny edge angles to fit the kit, instead of just doing it!
Note also he completely omits any comment on the bigger part of sharpening but concentrates on a fine edge on an already perfectly shaped bevel. Cheating!

It's so much easier without all the clumsy modern sharpening kit and mysterious rituals. If precise squareness is needed then it's no problem anyway.
Anybody ever bought the Odate Crown Plates? I thought they were about the extreme limit of modern sharpening craziness and everybody might have started to have doubts by now!

 

[mark w]

Yes no problem. Straightish will do. The typical camber curve on a jack plane would only show as a tiny fraction of a mm at narrow width of a rebate plane.

Not at all. Depends on your technique. Mine is to square/straighten edges as per normal, (machine or hand) but then to match plane each joint e.g. across a table top, by standing each board vertically on the next one, one pair at a time to see how they fit, and then plane to match perfectly by taking off a little here and a little there. The camber is particularly useful here as you can plane to one side or the other to alter a slight bevel either way. I find this much easier than trying to get every edge dead straight and square before trying to join them (if that's how others do it, I don't know). Have to mark them, as any swapped around edges almost certainly would not fit each other

Chisels don't need to be perfectly square. Why would they?
The obsession with perfect squareness/flatness/angles is not solved by using jigs and precision approaches, quite the opposite it is caused and made worse by them - you can't easily sharpen anything if it is not already close to the parameters of the modern sharpening kit - you have to adjust your funny edge angles to fit the kit instead of just doing it!

It's so much easier without all the clumsy modern sharpening kit and mysterious rituals. If precise squareness is needed then it's no problem anyway.
Anybody ever bought the Odate Crown Plates? I thought they were about the extreme limit of modern sharpening craziness and everybody might have started to have doubts by now!

Yet again Jacob you you are still pedalling nonsense, I think you make it up as you go along, a cambered rebate plane blade??? I guess if you work to really slack tolerances and your honing stone is hollow you'll have no choice but to be happy with the results.
Clearly you don't know what match planing is, you've described planing an edge where yes the cambered edge is useful but it's not in "match planing", you'll have to look it up Jacob.
And finally you are advocating cambered chisel edges, again if you've got a hollow stone you've got next to no choice but to accept a cambered edge. I wonder how you would get on selling the things you make with your sloppy 'near enough is good enough' attitude, my customers wouldn't accept it.
The rest of what you write is almost complete gibberish.
I haven't purchased the Odate plate and probably never will but please don't ridicule these things or the people that buy them, perhaps they are trying to achieve a higher standard of workmanship than you, for some, near enough is not good enough.

 

[Delwood]

Yet again Jacob you you are still pedalling nonsense, I think you make it up as you go along, a cambered rebate plane blade??? I guess if you work to really slack tolerances and your honing stone is hollow you'll have no choice but to be happy with the results.
Clearly you don't know what match planing is, you've described planing an edge where yes the cambered edge is useful but it's not in "match planing", you'll have to look it up Jacob.
And finally you are advocating cambered chisel edges, again if you've got a hollow stone you've got next to no choice but to accept a cambered edge. I wonder how you would get on selling the things you make with your sloppy 'near enough is good enough' attitude, my customers wouldn't accept it.
The rest of what you write is almost complete gibberish.
I haven't purchased the Odate plate and probably never will but please don't ridicule these things or the people that buy them, perhaps they are trying to achieve a higher standard of workmanship than you, for some, near enough is not good enough.

 

[Jacob]

Yet again Jacob you you are still pedalling nonsense, I think you make it up as you go along, a cambered rebate plane blade??? I guess if you work to really slack tolerances and your honing stone is hollow you'll have no choice but to be happy with the results.

The "fine" tolerances are what draws people in to modern sharpening. You have to ask yourself how people managed for thousands of years without all the modern kit making their tools look so perfect.

Clearly you don't know what match planing is, you've described planing an edge where yes the cambered edge is useful but it's not in "match planing", you'll have to look it up Jacob.

OK looked it up. You mean T&G planing. No prob. Not something I do often but if I do I use a Stanley 13-050. Unfashionable because it's a bit ugly but actually a very good tool. Hand done T&G not used in fine woodworking anyway.

And finally you are advocating cambered chisel edges,

No I did not advocate them, but if it happens accidentally it's not going to make the slightest difference in use

again if you've got a hollow stone you've got next to no choice but to accept a cambered edge.

No not true. If a straight edge essential I'd use another stone, though you can work them straight on a worn stone anyway, with care.

I wonder how you would get on selling the things you make with your sloppy 'near enough is good enough' attitude, my customers wouldn't accept it.

Nobody complained so far! Very few clues of sharpening techniques would be visible anyway.
Interesting to look at old stuff and sometimes find the tool marks by casting a torch beam over the surface, which gives a clue as to how and what they were doing/using

The rest of what you write is almost complete gibberish.

Sorry you don't understand anything much, it is difficult to describe.
But if you ever found yourself in a situation where you only had one or two stones and an urgent job in hand, you might slowly discover how to sharpen things without all the modern kit!

I haven't purchased the Odate plate and probably never will but please don't ridicule these things or the people that buy them, perhaps they are trying to achieve a higher standard of workmanship than you, for some, near enough is not good enough.

Modern sharpening techniques are no guarantee of fine workmanship!

 

[Delwood]

Instead of telling Jacob to look it up why not tell those of us who have never heard the term 'match planning'. It never came up in school woodworking classes when my tiny hands where trying to cope with a wooden jack plane some seventy plus years ago.

 

[mudman]

OK looked it up. You mean T&G planing. No prob. Not something I do often but if I do I use a Stanley 13-050. Unfashionable because it's a bit ugly but actually a very good tool.

I had to unignore him to see what gibberish he's talking about. You are right, he really doesn't know what match planing is.

 

[Jacob]

I had to unignore him to see what gibberish he's talking about. You are right, he really doesn't know what match planing is.

I just looked it up again. You get different definitions!
You mean the process whereby you plane two edges of boards clamped together in the hopes that the angle will be complementary and hence producing a flat face.
Somewhat theoretical in my opinion and yes it would not work with a cambered blade. I've always seen it as just another "good idea" which works out not as easily as hoped.
My method of matching board edges works fine for me and is spot on. I have done a lot of table tops. I'd expect to do the same procedure to check and correct the errors, even if I did "match plane" in that way.

 

[mudman]

Instead of telling Jacob to look it up why not tell those of us who have never heard the term 'match planning'. It never came up in school woodworking classes when my tiny hands where trying to cope with a wooden jack plane some seventy plus years ago.

You've probably seen the disdain that the resident troll shows for any technique that differs from his own biases and what he calls 'trad' so it is quite a revelation that the grand high priest of 'trad' woodworking hasn't heard of match planing.
It basically a way of planing the edges of two boards to ensure they match perfectly when you glue them together, possibly with a rub joint.

A quick google will give a number of links and videos, this one https://confusedwoodworker.wordpress.com/tag/match-planing/ comes out near the top. It doesn't really explain the process but there are other.
Interestingly this https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/match-planeing.21283/ is also near the top and is a short discussion from the early days (probably pre-Grim as he didn't weigh in on it). An interesting point is made by Paul Sellers about the plane sole that I hadn't considered before.

HTH