Sharpening Record No 4 - Silicon paper

[Anonymous]

javali/jacob - alter ego?

BUT if I wanted to use the rounded bevel - how would you recommend to someone the process of getting a consistent 'dip' as you hone?

Answer is simple - you don't aim at getting a consistent dip. You don't aim at a dip at all, its more a case of relaxing, not trying to maintain a fixed 30deg, but having a bias towards dipping down so that you are backing off the back of the bevel slightly, every time you hone the edge.
It's a bit "Zen and the Art of Sharpening".
Eventually you might have a rounded bevel like this one below but only after very many honings. This one below had a big chip so I had to regrind it (using belt sander) or it would be years before it looked like this.
If you start rounding the bevel on a new or conventionally sharpened chisel you will hardly see it at all except eventually the heel of the bevel will be touching the stone as well as the edge.
It's dead easy to do but quite difficult to describe.
Another detail is if you want a really scary sharp edge you hone the rounded bevel way as I've described, on your finest stone, but in very short gentle strokes just a few mm, turn over and ditto with removing the burr. The idea being that each time you make/remove the burr it is smaller than the time before. This is particularly difficult to do with a great clumsy honing jig in the way.

Thanks javali, glad to hear it works for you. Not me under assumed name, or anybody I know, honest :lol:
cheers
Jacob

 

[bugbear]

Ahem, er, I'd suggest the old fashioned "scary simple & cheap" sharpening practice of freehand with oil stone.

Yeah. that can work too. But even buying s single combination oil stone, (which doesn't have a fine enough grit to get an edge sharp enough for high quality finish planing) is much more expensive than a full set of SiC paper that will give you a much keener edge.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Nort ... -22390.htm

This is why I continue to recommend SiC sharpening for people "dipping a toe in the water" of hand tools.

BugBear

 

[mr]

FWIW I've used waterstones and oilstones and neither have given me an edge as sharp, as quickly , as cleanly or as easily as the scary sharp thing on a bit of wet n dry. Id be quite disappointed to go to either after SiC and am quite disappointed to have to return to them (waterstones) having decided that the paper route is too expensive in the long term.
Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

Mike, if you are not happy with the edge you are getting, it might be worth finishing your blades on a leather strop with jewellers rouge and Vaseline

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It very quickly produces a real mirror finish to your blades.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mr]

Yes Paul that's on my "to try" list - You've mentioned it before but I haven't got around to it yet - I'm particularly slow moving at the moment for some reason
Im not particularly after the mirror finish for itself more some evil sharpness as easily as possible.

Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

Im not particularly after the mirror finish for itself more some evil sharpness as easily as possible.

The point about the mirror finish is that honing is about using finer and finer abrasives, each one reducing the scratches produced by the previous one. Once you have a mirror finish, all the scratches have (for all practical purposes) gone and, provided you haven't rounded over the edge at all, it should be super-sharp

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Benchwayze]

I see where you are 'coming from' bugbear. But I think the point is, that water/diamond/or oilstones will last much longer than a pack of assorted sizes in SiC paper, which are disposable and have to be renewed at approx. £15.00 a time.

I also found using flat honing surfaces, I had to go for the 'camber' across the edge intentionally. Without a camber I would have tramlines on the work, however fine the plane is set. Grinding away the sharp corners resulted in scuff lines instead. With a stone that's slightly worn hollow, the camber is automatic. If you don't like the almost imperceptible ripple effect from a cambered blade, then you can sand flat if necessary. (I hate glass-paper!)

As to rounded bevel, versus flat bevel, the best analogy I can come up with is to compare the the prow of a destroyer to the rounded prow of a barge. It's easy to see which cleaves the water more easily. With a chisel of course, it might depend on how much waste you have in front of the bevel.

I am going to commit a 'sin' and hone two 1" chisels, both ways. Then I am going to throw them into a piece of scrap (like a dagger) and see which chisel sticks in the easiest, and what sort of cut they leave.
I can't think of any other way of settling it!

But I do like the idea of spending more time cutting than honing, and see no real harm in a rounded bevel, so long as the edge is 'wicked-sharp'.

John .

 

[Benchwayze]

Mike, if you are not happy with the edge you are getting, it might be worth finishing your blades on a leather strop with jewellers rouge and Vaseline

[
Paul

yes, agreed Paul.
Did you know that you can make your own Jewellers' rouge?

Get a ball of fine wire-wool, and set light to it. It doesn't flame up, but goes red hot and reduces to ferrous oxide (jewellers' rouge) in seconds. Put that in water and let it settle, and use the stuff from the top first.

(That is an old tip from when wire-wool was dirt cheap mind! )
I don't need to remind you to do this in a metal tray of course!

John

 

[Paul Chapman]

Did you know that you can make your own Jewellers' rouge?

That's neat, John :wink: However, given my age, that stick of rouge I have will probably see me out

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Benchwayze]

NP Paul.
I have mine in powder form in a glass jar! Along with 7 jars of different grades of carbo-powder.

From my telescope making days!

Cheers.
John

 

[Benchwayze]

Well I did my chisel-bevel test, but I can't put up the pics.
However, the rounded bevel did show a marked 'pushing aside' of the fibres both across and with the grain. The flat honed bevel showed more of a 'cutting' impression.

In the interests of safety and my chisels, I stabbed the chisels in, rather than chucking them like Steven Segal would his cooking knife!

Regards John

 

[Anonymous]

Ahem, er, I'd suggest the old fashioned "scary simple & cheap" sharpening practice of freehand with oil stone.

Yeah. that can work too. But even buying s single combination oil stone, (which doesn't have a fine enough grit to get an edge sharp enough for high quality finish planing) is much more expensive than a full set of SiC paper that will give you a much keener edge.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Nort ... -22390.htm This is why I continue to recommend SiC sharpening for people "dipping a toe in the water" of hand tools.
BugBear

Yebbut a stone will last for life given average use. Thats why there are so many around 2nd hand, well used and ancient. OTOH 2nd hand SiC wouldn't be very desireable.
I've got 3 stones, more by chance than choice. 2 combis and 1 very fine - this gives me 5 grades. If buying new I'd recommend one average combi and one much finer. Fine does all smaller chisels, 1/2" or less, no need to grind or move up a grade. Fine a bit slow for bigger ones but still useable for extra sharp finish but you would need the coarser grit to speed things up (rounded bevel grinding at 25deg max etc).
I'm never sure what makes a reasonable compromise - harder steel means slower sharpening but holds edge longer, scalpel sharp desireable but will loose edge sooner etc etc.
Another advantage of the scary simple sytem is that you don't ask questions - you just do it as and when, casually, when you feel like a little break etc.

I don't bother with all that obsessive face flattening either. The face becomes flat with use and honing. If you don't use the tool much then it doesn't matter if you haven't flattened and polished it :lol:

Well I did my chisel-bevel test, but I can't put up the pics.
However, the rounded bevel did show a marked 'pushing aside' of the fibres both across and with the grain. The flat honed bevel showed more of a 'cutting' impression.
In the interests of safety and my chisels, I stabbed the chisels in, rather than chucking them like Steven Segal would his cooking knife!
Regards John

The only test which counts is how it works while you are doing the job. You can have too much theoretical woodwork IMHO :roll:
cheers
Jacob
PS What I'm on about basically is a cheap, quick and practical sharpening regime for someone actually doing woodwork. What I'm not bothered about is how to get a mirrored finish, shavings 1 micron thick, lovely looking bevels, shaving hair off my body etc etc

 

[bugbear]

Yebbut a stone will last for life given average use. Thats why there are so many around 2nd hand, well used and ancient. OTOH 2nd hand SiC wouldn't be very desireable.

Did you not understand my point about the low initial cost being desirable for a new comer, or are you ignoring because it's incovenient?

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

I also found using flat honing surfaces, I had to go for the 'camber' across the edge intentionally. Without a camber I would have tramlines on the work, however fine the plane is set. Grinding away the sharp corners resulted in scuff lines instead. With a stone that's slightly worn hollow, the camber is automatic.

I bet I can get a cambered edge off a flat surface (slight pressure on the sides) better than I can get a straight edge (e.g. for rebate plane) off a hollowed surface!!

BugBear

 

[ByronBlack]

Jacob:

mirrored finish, shavings 1 micron thick, lovely looking bevels, shaving hair off my body

But they are all factors of a good sharp chisel/plane that will allow one to succesfully 'do' woodworking rather than struggling by with a half-sharp one. IMHO.

 

[Benchwayze]

I bet I can get a cambered edge off a flat surface (slight pressure on the sides) better than I can get a straight edge (e.g. for rebate plane) off a hollowed surface!!

BugBear

Of that I am sure, That's why I also have a diamond whetstone. Shame that I bet only on the horses. And then only on Good Friday!

Cheers Bugbear

John

 

[Benchwayze]

I also found using flat honing surfaces, I had to go for the 'camber' across the edge intentionally. Without a camber I would have tramlines on the work, however fine the plane is set. Grinding away the sharp corners resulted in scuff lines instead. With a stone that's slightly worn hollow, the camber is automatic.

I bet I can get a cambered edge off a flat surface (slight pressure on the sides) better than I can get a straight edge (e.g. for rebate plane) off a hollowed surface!!

BugBear

I have just realised what you meant. I find that pressure on the sides gives a straight cutting edge, but a curved honed area.

What works for me, is to angle the blade across the stone as I hone; first one side, then the other, until the camber is there and the bevel is of equal width all across the blade. That's when it's sharp enough to do the job.
But then again, some say a glob of spit works better than water. I always use water myself.
:lol: John

 

[Anonymous]

Yebbut a stone will last for life given average use. Thats why there are so many around 2nd hand, well used and ancient. OTOH 2nd hand SiC wouldn't be very desireable.

Did you not understand my point about the low initial cost being desirable for a new comer, or are you ignoring because it's incovenient?

BugBear

Neither - I overlooked it. But come to think it's nonsense anyway. You can get a stone for next to nothing from a car boot, or Screwfix
and anyway the APTC option isn't that pricey. Soon pay for itself unless the newcomer gives up at the first attempt!

cheers
Jacob

 

[javali]

Well I did my chisel-bevel test, but I can't put up the pics.
However, the rounded bevel did show a marked 'pushing aside' of the fibres both across and with the grain. The flat honed bevel showed more of a 'cutting' impression.

Well, John, For a comparison of the round and flat bevel you should ensure that the tangent of the round bevel and the grinding angle of the flat bevel are the same. Otherwise you are just comparing different honing angles and we know the effect of changing the honing angle. If you started with a flat or hollow ground chisel and just added a round bevel to it you are most likely to have added 5 to 10 degrees to the honing angle. I assume you have used the same set of stones for sharpening both ways. Did you remember to dip the blade while stropping? Failing to strop the very tip of the round bevel will result in a less sharp chisel.

While a round bevel is not difficult to make, it does take SOME practice. A little more than the first chisel you grab.

What I'm not bothered about is how to get a mirrored finish, shavings 1 micron thick, lovely looking bevels, shaving hair off my body etc etc

I do not know about you, but I get a mirror finish, I love the way my bevels look, and they do shave the hair off my body. I have no idea how thick the shavings are.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry not trying to bump this thread but someone just asked me what's the difference between a rounded bevel and a single flat bevel.
The answer is; not a lot to look at, the rounded bevel may only be very slightly convex, so little that you hardly notice.
But the big difference is in how you do it. A flat bevel means carefully holding the fixed angle of 30 deg, which is quite difficult freehand, and has to be done cautiously
A rounded bevel means starting off cautiously at 30 deg, but after a few mm then dipping slightly at which point you throw caution to the wind and can press down hard and stab the chisel forward quickly and energetically. This is why it is so much quicker than all the other hand methods.

cheers
Jacob