red dave
Established Member
Grahamshed":pinan7dk said:
have a look at paul sellers sharpen a handplane on utube
Sharpening. I know its controversial but......
- Thread starter Grahamshed
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have a look at paul sellers sharpen a handplane on utube
My own experience would point you towards a set of 3m lapping films and a 100 micron film for rough bevel forming from Workshop Heaven, either stick them on an off cut of worktop or splash out on the glass from workshop heaven, combine these with a cheap eclipse copy jig, this will get you up and moving ASAP and with a minimum outlay, once you have stuff thats sharp then you can try other methods, personally I use scary sharp even though I have a ezesharp duo diamond stone and various oilstones, nothing matches the edge available from the lapping films.
The advantages are that the eclipse is cheap and repeatable if you make yourself a projection board to make setting the blade quick and repeatable. I use Jacobs rounded bevel for my mortice chisels but nothing else and I don't rate oilstones for a hobby user scary sharp is easier IMO.
Old chisels are fine once you have the sharpening basics sorted, but buying a grotty old user off Ebay may well make your life harder in the long as there will be more to fix, I started with a set of Aldi Chisels which I still have 7 years later, handles are awful but the steels good, plus they cost pennies so you dont mind experimenting on them.
The advantages are that the eclipse is cheap and repeatable if you make yourself a projection board to make setting the blade quick and repeatable. I use Jacobs rounded bevel for my mortice chisels but nothing else and I don't rate oilstones for a hobby user scary sharp is easier IMO.
Old chisels are fine once you have the sharpening basics sorted, but buying a grotty old user off Ebay may well make your life harder in the long as there will be more to fix, I started with a set of Aldi Chisels which I still have 7 years later, handles are awful but the steels good, plus they cost pennies so you dont mind experimenting on them.
andersonec
Established Member
Jacob":219tlhhp said:
Do you really need to take woodwork seriously to sharpen by hand only when there are so many aids out there to produce a far superior job?
I got my basic honing guide in the sixties and it's still in use today, it's what you get used to, (if you do it by hand so be it, it's what you are used to) if you make a a jig for setting your guide it gives a consistent angle every time, not necessarily exactly 30 deg but consistently the same, the stones you use is entirely up to yourself but to hone the cutting edge it needs to be very fine.
Andy
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andersonec":iav1q1il said:
Pru, Its kicking off!
I dispute the superiority, I can shave the hair off my arm with a hand honed edge (admittedly only when I lap on extremely fine paper after using the oilstone) that level of sharpness is not neccesary for the vast majority of tasks.
Once you get to grips with it, hand sharpening is also indisputably quicker.
Togalosh
Established Member
I am new to all of this & have bought quite a few things in the past 12 months along with a book & have also asked a few questions on here & what I've found is:
- Sharp is when light cannot fall on the edge (once I heard this & then saw my edges I realised where I was going wrong)
- Some sharpening stones are too narrow for plane blades.
- All stones are too short for sharpening with a guide
- Float glass with self adhesive paper is great esp for plane blades & esp for flattening the back (once in the tool's life time).
- Float glass is not that special ie you can get a cheap bit from any glazier much cheaper than a tool specialist (or free off an old catering display fridge if you spot 1.. I am not encouraging you to whip the sneeze guard off the deli counter as you wait for your sandwhich to be made)
- The 2 guides I have (Veritas & record) are fiddly f%^&n things but I:ve been meaning to make a jig like Andy shows above for the Veritas one but the record (as also shown above) is awful but prehaps the older ones were better designed.
- After a lot of practicing my honing by hand I still fail to get a consistantly really sharp edge & a guide takes the doubt out of the whole process & I console myself that although I am cheating or being crap/amaturish at least my tools are sharp.
- My new water stone needs soaking for 15 minutes before use..this is a pain as I have to wait to use it or else I soon end up with a stagnant pool of water that is always going to get kicked or knocked about in my workshop..but what an edge it gives !
- I would only buy a shockingly expensive abrasive wheel system if I was doing wood turning.
- The better the tool the likelihood is that is was also a lot more expensive & I treat it with due reverence & no longer open tins or pry nails with them.
- The worst you can do to a blade by hand sharpening (w or wo a guide) can be easily undone so don't stress about making a fudge of things from time to time.
HTH
- Sharp is when light cannot fall on the edge (once I heard this & then saw my edges I realised where I was going wrong)
- Some sharpening stones are too narrow for plane blades.
- All stones are too short for sharpening with a guide
- Float glass with self adhesive paper is great esp for plane blades & esp for flattening the back (once in the tool's life time).
- Float glass is not that special ie you can get a cheap bit from any glazier much cheaper than a tool specialist (or free off an old catering display fridge if you spot 1.. I am not encouraging you to whip the sneeze guard off the deli counter as you wait for your sandwhich to be made)
- The 2 guides I have (Veritas & record) are fiddly f%^&n things but I:ve been meaning to make a jig like Andy shows above for the Veritas one but the record (as also shown above) is awful but prehaps the older ones were better designed.
- After a lot of practicing my honing by hand I still fail to get a consistantly really sharp edge & a guide takes the doubt out of the whole process & I console myself that although I am cheating or being crap/amaturish at least my tools are sharp.
- My new water stone needs soaking for 15 minutes before use..this is a pain as I have to wait to use it or else I soon end up with a stagnant pool of water that is always going to get kicked or knocked about in my workshop..but what an edge it gives !
- I would only buy a shockingly expensive abrasive wheel system if I was doing wood turning.
- The better the tool the likelihood is that is was also a lot more expensive & I treat it with due reverence & no longer open tins or pry nails with them.
- The worst you can do to a blade by hand sharpening (w or wo a guide) can be easily undone so don't stress about making a fudge of things from time to time.
HTH
McGill
Established Member
andersonec":mqwm2ikd said:
Damn. Why didn't I think of that!
Ah well, I know what I'm doing in the morning now! Cheers.
Edit: Why no pics in the quote? Meh.
Richard T
Established Member
Graham wrote: "2... What would you use to get a basic edge back that is capable of being sharpened ?"
Very good question.
Most of my best irons/chisels have been found, unloved, neglected and abused with a rusted, pitted flat side. I used to stick emery cloth to a flat surface with double sided tape. Recently I have bought an xxx coarse diamond 'stone'.
This is the kind of treatment, bother and expense needed for flattening the flat sides of good old Sheffield makes. No wheel will flatten the flat side. it will leave it wheel shaped. . Nor will any of the "insanely sharp" fine grit products in any quick time.
It's only really when you are embarking on the long job of getting a flat side flat, and/or taking the dinks and dents out of the edge of an old knacker and you get to the point where it's nearly done; where you have brought up a burr on the bevel and taken it off again on the flat, it will often be sharp enough to easily shave arm hairs. Even though you have been only using the coarsest 'get rid of it quick' medium.
Where you then go with fineness and how obsessed you get with 'scary' grit is up to you but I don't go very much further. A medium oil stone does me. If you can shave your arm hairs easily and without a rash, that's sharp enough for me.
Very good question.
Most of my best irons/chisels have been found, unloved, neglected and abused with a rusted, pitted flat side. I used to stick emery cloth to a flat surface with double sided tape. Recently I have bought an xxx coarse diamond 'stone'.
This is the kind of treatment, bother and expense needed for flattening the flat sides of good old Sheffield makes. No wheel will flatten the flat side. it will leave it wheel shaped. . Nor will any of the "insanely sharp" fine grit products in any quick time.
It's only really when you are embarking on the long job of getting a flat side flat, and/or taking the dinks and dents out of the edge of an old knacker and you get to the point where it's nearly done; where you have brought up a burr on the bevel and taken it off again on the flat, it will often be sharp enough to easily shave arm hairs. Even though you have been only using the coarsest 'get rid of it quick' medium.
Where you then go with fineness and how obsessed you get with 'scary' grit is up to you but I don't go very much further. A medium oil stone does me. If you can shave your arm hairs easily and without a rash, that's sharp enough for me.
adzeman
Established Member
Two question
Buying chisels.
Did you read David Savages aticle in British woodworking? Good artcle, he goes in length about no one manufactures steel as they use to i.e the drop forge process with the exception of a few individual Japanese manufacturers. So save a lot of money and buy second hand. I recently bought a half inch bevelled edge chisel for £2.00 you could kit yourself out with first rate chisels for a tenner.
Sharpening
Buy an "India" mediium grade oilstone and some 3 in one machine oil and practice. The common faults are not keeping your elbows straight. Its best if you have someone with you watching and shouting "your bending your elbows!" after a bit you will get the hang of it.
Another common fault is sharpening on the stone in the same area stone creating a hollow in the middle of the stone which is why I dont like using jigs. These definately cause uneven wear on the stone whih replicates itself in time on to what you are sharpening.
I use a Tormek for grinding the chisels but because I sharpen on the oil stone every time I use a chisel with a secondry bevel the Tormek eeps this in check. Yes the Tormek's do not come cheap but with what you saved on chisels should compensate. Remember a sharp tool is a safe tool. It also produces nice work.
Buying chisels.
Did you read David Savages aticle in British woodworking? Good artcle, he goes in length about no one manufactures steel as they use to i.e the drop forge process with the exception of a few individual Japanese manufacturers. So save a lot of money and buy second hand. I recently bought a half inch bevelled edge chisel for £2.00 you could kit yourself out with first rate chisels for a tenner.
Sharpening
Buy an "India" mediium grade oilstone and some 3 in one machine oil and practice. The common faults are not keeping your elbows straight. Its best if you have someone with you watching and shouting "your bending your elbows!" after a bit you will get the hang of it.
Another common fault is sharpening on the stone in the same area stone creating a hollow in the middle of the stone which is why I dont like using jigs. These definately cause uneven wear on the stone whih replicates itself in time on to what you are sharpening.
I use a Tormek for grinding the chisels but because I sharpen on the oil stone every time I use a chisel with a secondry bevel the Tormek eeps this in check. Yes the Tormek's do not come cheap but with what you saved on chisels should compensate. Remember a sharp tool is a safe tool. It also produces nice work.
sometimewoodworker
Established Member
Togalosh":2q7kkvp7 said:
The nice thing with shapton water stones is that the don't need soaking. Just splash or sprits on a bit and you are away.
Also as a mini gloat one of the very few advantages to living in Tokyo is getting Japanese tools at about half the UK or US prices.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Yebbut can you get a double sided norton oil stone? :roll:sometimewoodworker":24zf4fux said:
This is all surprisingly civilised isn't it?
I think that one major advantage of learning to sharpen freehand is that it means that every day you are practicing using your hands with a certain amount of skill, refinement and sensitivity — which can only be a good thing as these qualities are required in any fine work we do by hand.
Another is that it breeds confidence in the ability to use your hands in a precise way — if you know you don't need to use a jig to get a razor sharp edge you may be less likely to believe that you need to use a jig for other jobs that don't need one — which can perhaps lead to a more flexible approach to woodworking generally.
For starting out, if you don't want to spend too much I would vote for a double sided india oil stone (the black and red one) which will get an edge sharp enough for most work with minimal fuss. Later you could add something finer (1200 grit), either water stone, diamond stone, or scary sharp would be fine, which will give you an edge sharp enough to cut hairs.
Of course you can go finer than that but it's really hardly ever necessary.
I think that one major advantage of learning to sharpen freehand is that it means that every day you are practicing using your hands with a certain amount of skill, refinement and sensitivity — which can only be a good thing as these qualities are required in any fine work we do by hand.
Another is that it breeds confidence in the ability to use your hands in a precise way — if you know you don't need to use a jig to get a razor sharp edge you may be less likely to believe that you need to use a jig for other jobs that don't need one — which can perhaps lead to a more flexible approach to woodworking generally.
For starting out, if you don't want to spend too much I would vote for a double sided india oil stone (the black and red one) which will get an edge sharp enough for most work with minimal fuss. Later you could add something finer (1200 grit), either water stone, diamond stone, or scary sharp would be fine, which will give you an edge sharp enough to cut hairs.
Of course you can go finer than that but it's really hardly ever necessary.
Grahamshed
Established Member
Interesting. I haven't actually counted but it seems the vast majority are in favour of hand sharpening rather than various versions of grinding wheels.
So the choice seems to come down to oilstones or waterstones and I am still not sure what the difference is ( apart from the obvious ) Presumably it is what the stone is actually made of.
I think I even have an old stone built into a wooden box of my fathers in the shed though I have no idea if its oil or water/ fine or course. Have to fish it out and see what it does.
So the choice seems to come down to oilstones or waterstones and I am still not sure what the difference is ( apart from the obvious ) Presumably it is what the stone is actually made of.
I think I even have an old stone built into a wooden box of my fathers in the shed though I have no idea if its oil or water/ fine or course. Have to fish it out and see what it does.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've never tried waterstones but I believe the difference is that they cut better (sharpen faster) but are softer so don't last as long. Oil stones last for life.Grahamshed":2wr22ma3 said:
Apparently water stones are messy - and water causes rust if you don't dry everything.
Oil stone use is quite clean if you use plenty of old rags, clean off when finished and put lid back on to prevent drying out. A rare earth magnet is good for removing swarf - keeping the oil clean and longer in use.
The key thing is to refresh the surface every now and then, with a coarser stone. I use a diapad - a bit pricey but they last forever. You can find old stones which have never been cleaned and have had oil and gunge drying on the surface from new. A refresh can be a revelation!
PS and you can put more energy into using a hard oil stone which compensates for their slower cutting rate. Too much energy on a waterstone will destroy it.
andersonec
Established Member
Jelly":2pyqjq8s said:
Jelly,
I sharpen the blade for my planes on oilstones (also from the sixties) by hand, the reason? it leaves a slightly convex edge not because it's quicker, I have an oil stone for honing which must be approx 8/10,000 grit (again from the sixties) I strop the blade on the palm of my left hand and it could also shave the hairs on your arm. Chisels I sharpen with the help of a guide to leave a 90deg flat and square edge.
Sharpening by guide leaves a square edge great for chisels, sharpening by hand leaves a slightly convex edge, great for plane irons as you don't leave lines where the edge of the blade passes through the wood so a combination of both techniques is for me the best system.
There is no reason I can think of to take my blades anywhere near a grinding wheel other than to to regrind the bevel angle on a seriously damaged blade, say one that has been used to chop concrete.
Andy
sometimewoodworker
Established Member
I go with the editors of fine woodworking, they have a good video on the subject. I see no need to attempt to acquire an ability that a guide makes easy. As far as the shapton water stones they are a ceramic composit.Grahamshed":xr0invsp said:
I haven't bothered to get the 30,000 grit stone as even here it is £250,00
andersonec":2p5e9bal said:
I whole heartedly agree on grinding; beyond that, as I said a while back, sharpening techniques are as unique as the woodworker who uses them.
We both seem to be achiving comparable results with different systems which illustrates the point nicely, I will say that sharpening my paring chisels dead flat by hand is more time consuming, but the rest of them can happily be convex for me. Perhaps the overiding factor for me is that when I'm at work, being able to reach to the shelf for my stone, hone the edge and replace the stone* in almost no time is a big positive...
*A double sided ones bought in a tiny cave like shop, 200/800 grit. I tend to finish up on either 2000 or 4000 grit paper with a drop of oil if i want that super fine, shaving edge...
RogerBoyle":20jjmd3n said:
Honestly, that's the kind of careless comment that starts stupid arguments on the Internet.
It's fashionable these days to microwave your popcorn, leading some to believe that it's the only way to do it, but you need an expensive microwave and it doesn't produce such a great result.
The traditional method is superior. You put a tablespoon of oil in the bottom of a large saucepan with a couple of kernels, heat it in a medium-high heat until they pop then pour in a cup of kernels, cover, and wait for the popping to die down to the point that there's been no popping for ten seconds. It barely takes any time at all the learn the knack, and the popcorn it produces is far more delicious than the microwave-bag rubbish. You can only apply butter, salt or sugar as flavourings that easily, but let's be honest - everyone prefers buttered and salted popcorn and anyone who disagrees is probably just wrong.
It's also much cheaper, you don't have to buy a fancy microwave and you probably already have all the equipment at home. It's also much quicker in the end because you can just buy a single large bag of kernels and don't have to keep driving to the supermarket to buy more of the microwave bags.
(For what it's worth, I use a honing-angle jig I got from Wickes (!) and the 3M lapping films Workshop Heaven supplies. I'm definitely making myself a copy of Andersonec's angle-setting blocks, it's a damn good idea!
I'd also recommend people to be very careful talking about "cheap combination stones", 'cause that description may lead people to the grey/blue-grey combi stones you get in cheap chisel sets, and those things are despicably unfit for purpose. They practically disintegrate when you look at them, how anyone could think they're good for sharpening tools is beyond me.)
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
This sort of thing good for a beginner and for most day to day sharpening.JakeS":3ldn9dzt said:
Then eventually you might add one more finer stone and they'll see you out!
andersonec
Established Member
Jelly":rinxz3tw said:
Totally agree!
And it doesn't need flattening as often as a waterstone.
If it works and produces good results for the operator then that is the way it should be done, if a technique is learned and then used for any length of time it becomes the norm and second nature, the end result is the important thing, I expect that for every woodworker there is a different technique for sharpening, the basics can be taught but then the technique will be developed over time to suit oneself.
