Securing brace on a ledge and brace door

[Wilson joinery]

Hi everyone as the title suggests really, how do you secure the brace on a ledge and brace door. I’ll be making it a tight fit so it will need lightly tapping into place with a mallet. The front of the door will be simply boarded with lengths of redwood timber which will be nail gunned to the door rails but also into the brace. Will this be enough to keep it put?

Cheers
Pete

 

[Agent_zed]

I made a redwood ledged and braced door last year. I screwed the lengths to the rails and also the brace, from the inside so you can't see them from the outside. I put 1 screw in the centre of each rail and brace into the board, so each board can expand or contract as needed.

Seems to be a good solid door so far.

 

[John Brown]

I've made three. I did much the same thing - only one screw per board from the brace, and in line with the single screw per board from the ledges. On the Siberian larch shed doors I cut notches in the ledges for the braces, but I didn't bother in the cedar gate I made.

 

[TRITON]

birdsmouth joint ?
It would mean theres no need for screws.

What I see on many of these doors is the weight of the door acting on the brace is pushing against the stile, right at the mortise on the middle(and/or) bottom rail. But with the birdsmouth its pushing down into the rail, rather than sideways and against the stile.

 

[John Brown]

birdsmouth joint ?
It would mean theres no need for screws.

What I see on many of these doors is the weight of the door acting on the brace is pushing against the stile, right at the mortise on the middle(and/or) bottom rail. But with the birdsmouth its pushing down into the rail, rather than sideways and against the stile.

I guess you could call the "notches" a birdsmouth joint. I'd still want a screw/nail or two though.

 

[Wilson joinery]

I've made three. I did much the same thing - only one screw per board from the brace, and in line with the single screw per board from the ledges. On the Siberian larch shed doors I cut notches in the ledges for the braces, but I didn't bother in the cedar gate I made.

Thanks john

For my ignorance, why do you use only one screw per board? Did you put the screws in the rear like agent zed did? And why do you have to line the screws up in the rails and braces? Is that to allow for movement?

My door is going to be primed and glossed so guessing this is more if the wood is bare?

Cheers
Pete

 

[Wilson joinery]

birdsmouth joint ?
It would mean theres no need for screws.

What I see on many of these doors is the weight of the door acting on the brace is pushing against the stile, right at the mortise on the middle(and/or) bottom rail. But with the birdsmouth it’s pushing down into the rail, rather than sideways and against the stile.

Thanks triton, I’d never heard of a birds mouth joint so that’s something new for me to look in to

 

[John Brown]

Thanks john

For my ignorance, why do you use only one screw per board? Did you put the screws in the rear like agent zed did? And why do you have to line the screws up in the rails and braces? Is that to allow for movement?

My door is going to be primed and glossed so guessing this is more if the wood is bare?

Cheers
Pete

If the boards are tongue and groove, then I think you have to allow for expansion and contraction, so one nail or screw per board helps with this. But I'm not an expert, when I made my shed doors I watched a few videos to get the idea. They're still looking pretty good after 3 years.

 

[nickds1]

This is what I did for a big, heavy, wide cellar door... Didn't want the outside edge to ever drop... 3 years in and it hasn't moved at all.

In this case the timber is 8x1 rough sawn tanalised with a 1.5cm lapped joint and 3mm gap, so each board can expand/contract as needed. I stained the joints before assembly so that in the summer there are no white lines! Door is stained black with Sadolin Classic Ebony.

 

[okeydokey]

If the door is for external use be aware the timber will move and the gloss paint will crack might need sorting out every year or so -- a different finish might be worth considering.
I think your nailgun from the front as you suggest will do the job
About 10 years ago I bought a Wickes door kit for a side gate as a temporary job (still there as its fine) its had shed/fence finish once or twice it was one of these with round top. https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Ledged+Braced-Arched-Top-Timber-Gate-Kit---990-x-1981mm/p/218582
As our neighbour has just moved the/his boundary fence towards his side the gate is now 15cm too narrow so I will just cut the nails (with my recently acquired multi tool) off about half of the vertical tongue and groove and insert a few more slats in the middle to fit to size then change the rails one at a time so as not to have the whole thing collapse on me and job done. Pretty low cost
In my case its a back gate not a work of art - btw its not easy to find a 4 foot wide gate - even if I wanted to spend £150+ on it.

 

[Chubber]

According to CH Hayward.(top)

My R. Bayliss (below) goes further to state '3 or 5 nails' at each union.

When my stepfather made these he painted the tongues with white-lead paint and nails clenche'd.

 

[Amplidyne]

I've made several ledge and brace doors in the past. One big heavy one for outdoors, that was still there after 30 odd years last time I saw it. And some indoor ones. I've made most by screwing them, and I've never bothered with the "one line of screws" theory, and they've been OK, and a couple earlier with clenched nails. That works well also,
Main thing is to get the braces sloped the right way, and birdsmouth the joints. As already said, if you're going to paint or paint stain them, do the edges and the tongues first.