Sawstop demo and thoughts

[acacia.woodwork]

Anybody see the sawstop demo at Harrogate or elsewhere. Very exciting in the flesh and as doug mentioned slick as the Torrey canyon.
Will it be a great success? Or is it out of hobbiests means. It's the sort of advance that makes you go if only it was on everything! I found it interesting they choose a non woodworker to demo. His pitch was perfect. A very compelling case.
Are they taking the us by storm? Outselling the unisaw?

Will chime in as I was there too and ordered one (Compact) on the day.

I thought the demo they did at the Harrogate show was great.
I've wanted one of these for years though after following a few US youtube woodworkers who have them.

For me the safety features justify the cost but I get that they wont for everyone. I’m someone who unfortunately and rather embarrassingly goes faint/occasionally passes out at the sight of blood, so its as much about saving digits for me as it is about avoiding something much worse.

I've had + loved my Dewalt 7485 for a few years, admittedly with 0 incidents but one has never felt far away. I use push sticks, feather-boards etc, but because of the limited table top size it always feels like hands aren't far from the blade.

The SawStop compact was roughly twice the cost of the Dewalt, but takes bigger blades (250/254mm vs 210mm) and has a very slightly bigger top. The fence is a bit stiffer but just as accurate (both rack & pinion)

Like others have said, I think they’re primarily targeting the hobbiest, or small workshop market, or those in the trade who might be more safety conscious. The markets definitely there, whether id expect to see them on every job site in a few years? Probably not in the same way Dewalt is.

 

[Bingy man]

I asked the questions on the sawstop site and I’ve still not had an answer . Can anyone help .. is it available in 110 volts and is it a brushed motor or induction .. apart from the additional safety features I’d like to reduce the noise from my dewalt job site saw ..

 

[JoeS]

I'll be looking at buying one in the future.

 

[JoeS]

Will chime in as I was there too and ordered one (Compact) on the day.

I thought the demo they did at the Harrogate show was great.
I've wanted one of these for years though after following a few US youtube woodworkers who have them.

For me the safety features justify the cost but I get that they wont for everyone. I’m someone who unfortunately and rather embarrassingly goes faint/occasionally passes out at the sight of blood, so its as much about saving digits for me as it is about avoiding something much worse.

I've had + loved my Dewalt 7485 for a few years, admittedly with 0 incidents but one has never felt far away. I use push sticks, feather-boards etc, but because of the limited table top size it always feels like hands aren't far from the blade.

The SawStop compact was roughly twice the cost of the Dewalt, but takes bigger blades (250/254mm vs 210mm) and has a very slightly bigger top. The fence is a bit stiffer but just as accurate (both rack & pinion)

Like others have said, I think they’re primarily targeting the hobbiest, or small workshop market, or those in the trade who might be more safety conscious. The markets definitely there, whether id expect to see them on every job site in a few years? Probably not in the same way Dewalt is.

More or less exactly where i'm at - i'll be buying one with a cast table though. No more aluminium tables to bend.

 

[Spectric]

When was the last time you set off all of your car airbags to test they actually work?

That is a relatively simple system where the ECU just continously monitors the circuit impedance, very similar to ABS sensors and will just bring up a warning light upon failure, the probability of a failure at the exact same point in time as an RTA is extremely unlikely. If the sawstop has a test feature that requires touching the blade then that will either warn or stop the user from usingthe machine.

 

[acacia.woodwork]

That is a relatively simple system where the ECU just continously monitors the circuit impedance, very similar to ABS sensors and will just bring up a warning light upon failure, the probability of a failure at the exact same point in time as an RTA is extremely unlikely. If the sawstop has a test feature that requires touching the blade then that will either warn or stop the user from usingthe machine.

I can confirm you can switch the saw into standby (no spinning blade), touch the blade and see if the red light glows.
It's handy to test if you're cutting wet wood or anything remotely conductive, wouldn't want to waste a brake+potentially a blade (they said 50% of the time the break messes up the blade, 50% you're good to continue) for the sake of it.

 

[Agent_zed]

That is a relatively simple system where the ECU just continously monitors the circuit impedance, very similar to ABS sensors and will just bring up a warning light upon failure, the probability of a failure at the exact same point in time as an RTA is extremely unlikely. If the sawstop has a test feature that requires touching the blade then that will either warn or stop the user from usingthe machine.

you've no idea that the 10+year old airbag will actually deploy in the way it should though, the circuit just tells you the electrics are working. There is no way of knowing if the charge is still viable until it goes off. I'm sure I read they should be replaced after 10 years, but no one ever does. Plenty of old cars on the road including mine which is now 12 years old.

As long as the circuit works on the tablesaw inertia ensures it will be stopped by the stop block.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I know this is your hobby horse Jacob but the issue is not training. The issue is inattention due to distraction or tiredness in fallible or ageing humans. The secondary issue is insurers assessing the risks of safety in any workplace where people are employed or even in a men's shed where there is public usage of machines.

No doubt you are perfectly safe - though I'm not clear how you manage to get nicks in your push sticks, but not everyone is equally infallible.

To some extent I both agree and disagree with Jacob's position. He said in post #28, "Basically Sawstop seems to be a big money-making rip-off based on scaremongering about accidents, particularly amongst the amateur and beginner fraternity" which I suspect is incorrect and where I rather disagree with him. I was living in the USA when Steve Gass started pushing for acceptance of the SawStop technology he'd worked on for a number of years. As I recall the discussion about him and his technology it was that he came across as a pushy person trying to use legal means to get the technology he'd developed adopted by the big woodworking machinery names in the US. His reasoning as I recall (maybe incorrectly?) for developing the technology was a response to the very high number of cabinet saw injuries and worse that American woodworkers (amateur and professional) experienced in use.

During my time living in the US I seemed to be permanently surprised and frequently rather shocked at how cavalier Americans tended to be around all their woodworking machinery, including their cabinet saws. It was almost, in some cases of use I witnessed, as if the user thought all safe use techniques or practices and safety devices attached to any machine was and were only for wimps and other weaklings. I wasn't particularly surprised when Steve Gass and his technology, and later SawStop itself appeared on the market: after all, I could see the logic of what he was trying to achieve, and my opinion of how he was trying to get where he wanted was of no consequence as far as I could see.

Where I do agree with Jacob is his promotion of safe working practices around our table/rip saws here in the UK and elsewhere in Europe: guards in place, riving knife set properly, appropriate setting of the rip fence for ripping, use of push sticks (two or more), etc, all should be promoted and taught if possible. I suspect adding a SawStop machine to those practices and techniques could add another element to reduced table saw injuries, but I don't have a position on promoting SawStop at Harrogate for example being scaremongering, a rip off, etc.

Oh yes AJB, nicks in push sticks? It happens on a fairly regular basis, and up to a point that's what they're for, i.e., push a push stich into the saw blade whilst controlling (usually) a smallish bit of wood rather than fingers. Push sticks to me are replacement items, much in the same vein as putting new pads into car disc brakes when required. Slainte.

 

[Agent_zed]

I can confirm you can switch the saw into standby (no spinning blade), touch the blade and see if the red light glows.
It's handy to test if you're cutting wet wood or anything remotely conductive, wouldn't want to waste a brake+potentially a blade (they said 50% of the time the break messes up the blade, 50% you're good to continue) for the sake of it.

This point seems to be overlooked by many that it costs a lot of money to replace the blade and stop block, some people talk about it like people will just not pay any attention at all to safety because they won't lose a hand. I can't imagine many people want to spend £100+ as well as the time replacing the safety if they don't have to.

I think it is actually a good thing it is destructive, as the point is it is a last ditch effort to save you, not something that means you can happily trigger and reset as many times as you like without consequence.

 

[johnnyb]

The irony being these saws are high quality and once set would be as safe as they can be. It's the cheap saws I won't go near fearing the worst!

 

[Doug71]

If I was buying a site saw I would go for one of the Sawstops, they look good quality, well designed and the finger protection is a bonus.

When I was younger I never seemed to have any accidents at all but as I'm getting older I seem to have got more accident prone, this year I have twice cut my hand quite badly and also broken a finger, these things never used to happen, I don't feel to be doing anything differently but I must be. Hopefully I will never stick my finger into my saw blade but it would be nice to have Sawstop if I did.

 

[Bingy man]

I had several accidents when I was young , not necessarily with tools but just a little careless or as @Doug71 says a little accident prone . I’ve recently done a few roof jobs and at 40 ft above ground I took no chances - hard hat , good pair of boots and a safety harness secured to the scaffolding. The last job I had left was to fix a hopper to the wall about 8 ft above ground so didn’t bother with the safety harness , sat on a scaffold board and drilled two holes and plugged them and screwed the hopper home . Next thing I know I’ve stepped too far right on the edge of the board and down I went , managed somehow to grab a scaffold bar and ended up a foot from the ground with a few graizes for my troubles . So all the care and safety precautions at 40ft disappeared as I was only a few feet above ground yet a backwards fall from 8 feet would of left me with a nasty head injury and worse the customer is housebound so nobody would of known .. so yes if it meets my needs I’ll certainly consider a saw stop. Just that extra level of safety could make all the difference. I’ve no time for the politics of this thread just keen to not injure myself..

 

[johnnyb]

Age and clumsiness seem related especially with work at height. But equally with machinery. ..unfortuneatly.

 

[Bingy man]

I’ve been in touch with sawstop to enquire about the motor on the sawstop job site pro. I was asking if it’s an induction motor or brushed but it appears it’s neither . Below are screenshots of the email they sent me - it seems the jobsite pro is 20 kg heavier than the compact version and the motor is approx 200 watts more . So questions for those that understand motors 1 will this saw be quieter than my brushed motor dewalt. 2 how will compare to an induction motor . I understand about different material densities etc . 3 apart from the slightly bigger motor and the additional 20 kgs why is the price difference £700 ,, I’m assuming both saws have the same blade safety systems.. or have I missed something. T I A as I’m trying to justify the cost against keeping my dewalt ..
Edit

 

[ThornOfCamorr]

Might be relevant: I own the Festool TKS 80 (also saw stop). It’s a fairly small motor for a table saw connected to the blade via belt. I assume the belt is there to protect the motor from the harsh stop in case the saw stop kicks in blocking your saw blade.

The noise level/sound of the saw is absolutely pleasant. It’s quieter than my mitre saw and way quieter than the big 400V table saws in my dad’s workshop. I can cut without hearing protection.

I think the noise level is more influenced by the blade design than by the motor.

Hope that helps

 

[Inspector]

#1 The saw has a universal motor (from the literature on the USD SawStop site) like most saws in that category including the Dewalt. Sound will be similar. Blade has a lot to do with the noise too. I wear ear protection with all saws I use.

#2 Same as any Jobsite saw against a cabinet saw.

#3 The Jobsite saw is bigger so more aluminium in the top, fence, stand and other components all of which adds to cost. The bigger motor while having the same cartridge may have different and heavier parts to its carriage assembly. Whether you believe the bigger size justifies the greater cost is yours to ponder but the bigger top should make for a much more useable machine.

If you want the benefits of an induction motor you'll have to accept that the machines will be bigger and heavier with associated cost. In the end you have to decide if the safety feature is worth it to you or not.

Pete

 

[acacia.woodwork]

I’ve been in touch with sawstop to enquire about the motor on the sawstop job site pro. I was asking if it’s an induction motor or brushed but it appears it’s neither . Below are screenshots of the email they sent me - it seems the jobsite pro is 20 kg heavier than the compact version and the motor is approx 200 watts more . So questions for those that understand motors 1 will this saw be quieter than my brushed motor dewalt. 2 how will compare to an induction motor . I understand about different material densities etc . 3 apart from the slightly bigger motor and the additional 20 kgs why is the price difference £700 ,, I’m assuming both saws have the same blade safety systems.. or have I missed something. T I A as I’m trying to justify the cost against keeping my dewalt ..
Edit

Which Dewalt is it you have?
I just swapped my Dewalt 7845 for the sawstop CTS. Safety features + bigger table & cut capacity were the sellers for me. Its a slightly lesser powered saw than my Dewalt all things considered, but barely noticeable.

I saw Sawstop at the Harrogate Show and basically asked them to convince me why I should get the Pro instead of the CTS. Some of the reasons they gave, most of which worked against the upsell from my POV:
- The Pro is a much older model (no rack & pinion fence, older motor etc). I noticed the Pro fence had a tiny bit of wobble when the CTS was rock solid.
- Pro has a bigger table top, and 1” more cut capacity than the CTS.
- Pro comes with an integrated stand (maybe worth £100ish?)
- At the Show they also were throwing in their mitre guage for free which they sell for £199
- Pro weighs more but is designed to always be on the wheeled stand, im unsure if it can easily come off.
- Both have a 254mm blade so bigger cut capacity than my 210mm dewalt.
- CTS Stand doesn't have wheels.
- Pro is designed for portability (wheel stand), CTS is designed for garage/small workshops where it isn't moved around loads (due to lack of wheels). The CTS weighs noticeably more than my Dewalt, but still fine to move around.
- Both are similar noisewise

Would recommend visiting their travelling showroom if you get the chance, although I think places like Axminster now have them in store.

 

[Bingy man]

Might be relevant: I own the Festool TKS 80 (also saw stop). It’s a fairly small motor for a table saw connected to the blade via belt. I assume the belt is there to protect the motor from the harsh stop in case the saw stop kicks in blocking your saw blade.

The noise level/sound of the saw is absolutely pleasant. It’s quieter than my mitre saw and way quieter than the big 400V table saws in my dad’s workshop. I can cut without hearing protection.

I think the noise level is more influenced by the blade design than by the motor.

Hope that helps

I have the dewalt 745 110 volt

 

[Bingy man]

#1 The saw has a universal motor (from the literature on the USD SawStop site) like most saws in that category including the Dewalt. Sound will be similar. Blade has a lot to do with the noise too. I wear ear protection with all saws I use.

#2 Same as any Jobsite saw against a cabinet saw.

#3 The Jobsite saw is bigger so more aluminium in the top, fence, stand and other components all of which adds to cost. The bigger motor while having the same cartridge may have different and heavier parts to its carriage assembly. Whether you believe the bigger size justifies the greater cost is yours to ponder but the bigger top should make for a much more useable machine.

If you want the benefits of an induction motor you'll have to accept that the machines will be bigger and heavier with associated cost. In the end you have to decide if the safety feature is worth it to you or not.

Pete

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

 

[Bingy man]

Which Dewalt is it you have?
I just swapped my Dewalt 7845 for the sawstop CTS. Safety features + bigger table & cut capacity were the sellers for me. Its a slightly lesser powered saw than my Dewalt all things considered, but barely noticeable.

I saw Sawstop at the Harrogate Show and basically asked them to convince me why I should get the Pro instead of the CTS. Some of the reasons they gave, most of which worked against the upsell from my POV:
- The Pro is a much older model (no rack & pinion fence, older motor etc). I noticed the Pro fence had a tiny bit of wobble when the CTS was rock solid.
- Pro has a bigger table top, and 1” more cut capacity than the CTS.
- Pro comes with an integrated stand (maybe worth £100ish?)
- At the Show they also were throwing in their mitre guage for free which they sell for £199
- Pro weighs more but is designed to always be on the wheeled stand, im unsure if it can easily come off.
- Both have a 254mm blade so bigger cut capacity than my 210mm dewalt.
- CTS Stand doesn't have wheels.
- Pro is designed for portability (wheel stand), CTS is designed for garage/small workshops where it isn't moved around loads (due to lack of wheels). The CTS weighs noticeably more than my Dewalt, but still fine to move around.
- Both are similar noisewise

Would recommend visiting their travelling showroom if you get the chance, although I think places like Axminster now have them in store.

Yes I have seen them on their website. Thanks for your reply- I have the dw 745lx ( 110v)