Sawstop demo and thoughts

[Doug71]

Felder also do a version similar to Altendorf which they seem quite confident in......

 

[Inspector]

One of the local High Schools where our woodworking and turning clubs meet replaced all their table saws (Wadkin Bursgreen, General and Unisaws) with SawStops a number of years ago. Even though the grade 10's get safety instruction for half a semester and have to pass to use each machine supervising up to 30 students by one teacher is never going to be totally safe. Having the SawStops will save some kids from having a life altering accident. Pretty much all the schools here have done the same or shut down their woodworking programs completely.

Businesses buy them because a worker triggering a brake is a lot cheaper than the downtime of a worker recovering from an accident and the increase in Workman's Compensation rates that follow.

SawStops are among the best selling saws here in spite of the higher costs.

Pete

 

[TRITON]

In what markets, do you think sawstop will takeover ? Do you really think it will replace products from companies like Itech and SCM in the industrial market.

It is not aimed at the industrial market as you are well aware. It is aimed at the small shop, predominantly hobby/craft users who might not follow all the rules.
They might have no official training whatsoever.

And I think you will find that the majority of accidents happen with the home user.

I wonder if you were this negative when braking came in under law. I suspect the argument there was 'accidents happen in a fraction of a second, and this system is stopping at 10 seconds'

 

[Spectric]

It is not aimed at the industrial market as you are well aware.

Sawstop is not but it seems bigger industrial brands like Altendorf are looking in this direction. When you look at tablesaws there are two distinct groups which also tend to fall into the home user or industrial. If you have a large sliding table saw then there is no reason at all to work close to the blade but us home users with limited space do not have this luxury.

 

[ThornOfCamorr]

Festool TKS80 is a SawStop equipped saw available in Europe for a few years now. Festool bought SawStop. Took them a while to get that technology certified for the European market.

There is a push in the US that any new saw should be equipped with a safety system like SawStop. There was a congressional hearing where SawStop assured that if this becomes legislation they will provide access to their technology to competitors for free (stumpy nubs did a video on it )

I personally have the TKS80 and I’m glad I have that extra safety system, although I’m not planning on using it . When you power up the saw it performs some checks that things are working. When you trigger the system due to contact with body Festool asks you to send the cartridge to them for analysis in exchange for a new one. Lights on the saw also indicate if it notices body contact. So you can touch the blade while saw is switched off and see the system detecting your finger.

 

[Jacob]

..... Having the SawStops will save some kids from having a life altering accident. Pretty much all the schools here have done the same or shut down their woodworking programs completely.

Were life altering accidents a frequent feature of these woodworking programs?

 

[Fergie 307]

Were life altering accidents a frequent feature of these woodworking programs?

I suspect probably not, but authorities scared there might be.
Our own schools are doing the same sadly. My son's had very well equipped metal and wood work shops, all now out of use with the "very dangerous" machines like lathes, saws and milling machines all off limits.
They had five Harrison 140 lathes and several Bridgeport mills all gathering dust because they were deemed too dangerous for the pupils to use. Similar in the woodwork shop, table saw bandsaw and lathe off limits to the pupils.

 

[Jacob]

I suspect probably not, but authorities scared there might be.
Our own schools are doing the same sadly. My son's had very well equipped metal and wood work shops, all now out of use with the "very dangerous" machines like lathes, saws and milling machines all off limits.
They had five Harrison 140 lathes and several Bridgeport mills all gathering dust because they were deemed too dangerous for the pupils to use. Similar in the woodwork shop, table saw bandsaw and lathe off limits to the pupils.

Basically Sawstop seems to be a big money-making rip-off based on scaremongering about accidents, particularly amongst the amateur and beginner fraternity.
A few basic lessons in safe use would be much more useful - with push-sticks and many other common sense procedures.
These are essential anyway as there are millions of saws out there which will never be replaced with Sawstop, not to mention the even more millions of machines which saw stop could not replace - spindles, planers, drills etc etc.
There's a whole range of other holding devices which IMHO are pretty useless too, and not cheap.
If you are serious about safety start here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trend-PUSHSTICK-Router-Table-Pushstick/dp/B001UQ5P5I/ref=asc_df_B001UQ5P5I
Push sticks not only virtually eliminate the risk of a cut, they also make the work easier - you can hold the workpiece down much better, closer to the blade if necessary - the push stick takes the risk, not your fingers

 

[Cooper]

I suspect probably not, but authorities scared there might be.
Our own schools are doing the same sadly. My son's had very well equipped metal and wood work shops, all now out of use with the "very dangerous" machines like lathes, saws and milling machines all off limits.
They had five Harrison 140 lathes and several Bridgeport mills all gathering dust because they were deemed too dangerous for the pupils to use. Similar in the woodwork shop, table saw bandsaw and lathe off limits to the pupils.

As a retired HOD of a D&T departments I'm afraid the reason that school workshops have declined so dramatically since most of us were pupils, is that there just aren’t enough competent practical qualified people to teach the skills.
Also D&T is very expensive and there was a time Head teachers and governments realised much of the creative aspects of the subject could be “taught” by the children make folders and mood boards.
Also the career opportunities available to pupils have changed, with many of the skilled jobs having been exported and new careers created.

 

[Spectric]

So you can touch the blade while saw is switched off and see the system detecting your finger.

That is a good start towards safety, to take that further it would be better if before the saw was used that you had to touch the blade to engage a safety relay with force guided contacts that then allowed the machine to run, think about RCD's and that many people put there faith in them but never do periodic testing .

A few basic lessons in safe use would be much more useful

No mater how many safety features are used there will always be accidents otherwise we would not have the Darwin awards !

 

[Cooper]

Back to the initial topic of safety. I was thinking the other day why haven’t the mechanical parts and blades of bandsaws and table saws been replaced by a cutting laser. The momentum of the blades is the real hazard, a laser would turn off instantly. I’m probably showing my ignorance about lasers.

 

[Agent_zed]

Then the sawstop itself, still not convinced because having worked with high integrity safety systems then a key part of these is testing to confirm that you know that upon demand this safety system will prevent the hazzard from being realised. So this sawstop that is preventing it from causing harm must be failsafe, ie if the safety system is not working then it must prevent the saw from working so how is this achieved. Also just like E stops and RCD's you need a periodic test to confirm operation, can this be done ?

When was the last time you set off all of your car airbags to test they actually work?

 

[Agent_zed]

Back to the initial topic of safety. I was thinking the other day why haven’t the mechanical parts and blades of bandsaws and table saws been replaced by a cutting laser. The momentum of the blades is the real hazard, a laser would turn off instantly. I’m probably showing my ignorance about lasers.

Lazers cut by burning. Try ripping a 6ft long 4inch piece of oak by burning through it with a lazer and see how long it takes, the power required and the finish you'll get, and you'll have the answer.

 

[Cooper]

Isn't steel sheet cut by lasers these days?

 

[Jacob]

When was the last time you set off all of your car airbags to test they actually work?

I test my push-sticks every time I use them. Luckily it's a non-destructive process but even if it wasn't they are dirt cheap. I make copies from ply or mdf scraps. They do get the odd nick, but that's the whole idea - it's instead of getting the odd nick on your hand.

 

[Agent_zed]

I test my push-sticks every time I use them. Luckily it's a non-destructive process but even if it wasn't they are dirt cheap. I make copies from ply or mdf scraps. They do get the odd nick, but that's the whole idea - it's instead of getting the odd nick on your hand.

I find push sticks really hard to drive with, although if you get good you can sit in the back seats.

 

[Jacob]

I find push sticks really hard to drive with, although if you get good you can sit in the back seats.

Do you get cuts from your steering wheel? You can get covers for them you know, all colours and patterns. Leopard skin even!

 

[Agent_zed]

This is oncourse to be another 'Just use push sticks/training' vs 'some people don't listen/safety fall back' thread.

Life would be pretty simple if everyone did everything perfectly all of the time. If you think the answer to reducing tablesaw accidents is to advise people to work safely, have a think about litter. Walk down a street and look at the litter that people drop. It isn't hard to put it in a bin when you see one, there are plenty of bins around, there are loads of adverts about not littering and even on the packets themselves, you can even get fined £100 for dropping litter, their parents probably even said don't litter. If we can't get people to put the rubbish they are holding in a bin all of the time, what are the chances you'll get everyone to work safely on a tablesaw all of the time?

 

[Jacob]

This is oncourse to be another 'Just use push sticks/training' vs 'some people don't listen/safety fall back' thread.

Life would be pretty simple if everyone did everything perfectly all of the time. If you think the answer to reducing tablesaw accidents is to advise people to work safely, have a think about litter. Walk down a street and look at the litter that people drop. It isn't hard to put it in a bin when you see one, there are plenty of bins around, there are loads of adverts about not littering and even on the packets themselves, you can even get fined £100 for dropping litter, their parents probably even said don't litter. If we can't get people to put the rubbish they are holding in a bin all of the time, what are the chances you'll get everyone to work safely on a tablesaw all of the time?

It's much easier and more effective to teach people how to work safely, rather than persuading them to fork out £Ks on every machine they are likely to encounter in their lives, and just ignore safe practices.

 

[AJB Temple]

It's much easier and more effective to teach people how to work safely, rather than persuading them to fork out £Ks on every machine they are likely to encounter in their lives, and just ignore safe practices.

I know this is your hobby horse Jacob but the issue is not training. The issue is inattention due to distraction or tiredness in fallible or ageing humans. The secondary issue is insurers assessing the risks of safety in any workplace where people are employed or even in a men's shed where there is public usage of machines.

No doubt you are perfectly safe - though I'm not clear how you manage to get nicks in your push sticks, but not everyone is equally infallible.