Saw stop ( USA )

[Jacob]

Jacob - I just bought this pushstick (pushblock) from Jeff Allred, a maker in Texas. It is 24" long, made of cherry, and it has a commanding presence. This and a modicum of care will keep me from harm. Before you say "too big" or "too heavy" I'll answer, "It's just right". Thank you and others for emphasizing safety.

I prefer your smaller pattern, two of them in use and the same shape and size. You can only exert pressure at two points with your two bare hands and the "standard" pattern emulates the shape of arm and clenched fist somehow, giving a combination of pressure both down and horizontally.
It's a compromise - the longer they are the less force you exert at the long end.

 

[spiritburner]

Health and Safety plus Liability and Product Liability insurance are the two things on their own or together that bring nearly every construction contract to a grinding halt in the UK. Forget planning, its H&S that kills just about everything including the very construction workers that read the method statements provided by the Executive that supply them in the first place. Nanny State aint got nothing on the H&S Executive.

 

[Ttrees]

Up until a good lot of folks changed to Sawstops, in the US,
the average circular saw accidents (that's the ones reported)
amounted to 65000 hospital visits annually!.


Yes, that's SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND reported accidents a year, on average.
If you think it's folks brand new to the machine, then you'd be very mistaken.

IMO, and the opinion of most being the HSE could be writing better, but at least it's a start, and there's things mentioned, which they presume is a given.
UK advice is much differing to USA practice.

Over and out.

 

[Molynoox]

Up until a good lot of folks changed to Sawstops, in the US,
the average circular saw accidents (that's the ones reported)
amounted to 65000 hospital visits annually!.


Yes, that's SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND reported accidents a year, on average.
If you think it's folks brand new to the machine, then you'd be very mistaken.

IMO, and the opinion of most being the HSE could be writing better, but at least it's a start, and there's things mentioned, which they presume is a given.
UK advice is much differing to USA practice.

Over and out.

How many is it now do you know? Other wise I can't really read anything into your stats as it might have gone up for all I know.

 

[Jacob]

Up until a good lot of folks changed to Sawstops, in the US,
the average circular saw accidents (that's the ones reported)
amounted to 65000 hospital visits annually!.


Yes, that's SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND reported accidents a year, on average.
If you think it's folks brand new to the machine, then you'd be very mistaken.

IMO, and the opinion of most being the HSE could be writing better, but at least it's a start, and there's things mentioned, which they presume is a given.
UK advice is much differing to USA practice.

Over and out.

Do you have equivalent stats for the effectiveness of two push sticks? I suspect that in normal use they would result in close to zero significant accidental cuts to the hand.

 

[Inspector]

Do you have equivalent stats for the effectiveness of two push sticks? I suspect that in normal use they would result in close to zero significant accidental cuts to the hand.

85 post so far in this thread and 20 of them yours. All arguing around and around and around the same points that eventually no matter how relevant become noise and the value of the message is lost. Happens in every thread every time. You never get it. Very happy I never had to work along side you. I would have looked for another job.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

85 post so far in this thread and 20 of them yours. All arguing around and around and around the same points that eventually no matter how relevant become noise and the value of the message is lost. Happens in every thread every time. You never get it. Very happy I never had to work along side you. I would have looked for another job.

Pete

I think the push stick message is important to get across as they are extremely effective in avoiding accidents.
I picked up the idea on this forum many years ago, for which I'm very grateful!
Happy to keep plugging on repeating it as it is very likely that it has saved a few fingers over the years, including perhaps my own.
Saw stop seems to me to be merely an expensive OT gadget and not even 100% safe. Waste of money when there are simpler safer methods available.

 

[Ttrees]

How many is it now do you know? Other wise I can't really read anything into your stats as it might have gone up for all I know.

I don't know, I heard it here in one of the tablesaw threads, and indeed seen those figures on Google, and other videos mention the same.
I suppose it doesn't really matter, as we don't know how many trained folks were using them,
and likely lots of other factors which I've not considered,
though I could think of many, there's seemingly no mention of the details,
i.e types of circular saw injuries, or the use of them, i.e ripping or crosscutting,
wrong/damaged/dull blades, and no riving knife attached..
which usually the crown guard is mounted on, non sliding fences for ripping,
or Shaw guards for non through cuts, infeed and outfeed tables,
if some machines were tipped over whilst on sawhorses, level machine or choked badly,
machines on casters without suitable system to disable rolling
Projectiles one could argue, more likely to get a spear (story here bout that and someone lost a thumb, with shorter pushsticks)
Non left tilting arbors, unsuitable clothing and gloves worn,
type of push sticks used, suitable saw which can take a good insert which isn't floppy, bendy/bent
and flatness of table, rigidity of things, general quality and condition.
Those are just a few things which matter, off the top of my head, though I'm probably leaving a good bit out...
Which are likely important factors.

Though I think Jacobs right, the pushsticks perhaps up there as the most important factor in regards to safety,
or whichever way one want's to say it.
Especially if doing things by the book i.e the free HSE circular saw advice,
which anyone can download, though as I might have said already,
perhaps very assumptive in regards to the demonstrations,
so someone brand new to this, but has stuck around enough to know what they dont know.
and bearing in mind likely some spring chickens starting out, have so many bad videos,
what's reduced to sped up "shorts" ,"ticktoks", and insta's, that could give one the impression
of gaining a whole lot of knowledge in, say an hour of that,
when in reality, the only things they know is bad practice.

So I can see where Jacob's coming from there.

All the best
Tom

 

[Cabinetman]

Though I think Jacobs right, the pushsticks perhaps up there as the main offender,

NO, surely you don’t mean that. So just what are you saying please.

 

[Ttrees]

Corrected, was still editing, but the signal is bad.
I was meant to say the lack of suitable pushsticks being such.
You might see I've linked one of your threads today, Ian.
Cheers
Tom

 

[Cabinetman]

Ok that’s great thanks! Thought you were abandoning ship there for a minute haha.
Hadn’t noticed, and thank you.
Ian

 

[Inspector]

I don't know, I heard it here in one of the tablesaw threads, and indeed seen those figures on Google, and other videos mention the same.
I suppose it doesn't really matter, as we don't know how many trained folks were using them,
and likely lots of other factors which I've not considered,
though I could think of many, there's seemingly no mention of the details,
i.e types of circular saw injuries, or the use of them, i.e ripping or crosscutting,
wrong/damaged/dull blades, and no riving knife attached..
which usually the crown guard is mounted on, non sliding fences for ripping,
or Shaw guards for non through cuts, infeed and outfeed tables,
if some machines were tipped over whilst on sawhorses, level machine or choked badly,
machines on casters without suitable system to disable rolling
Projectiles one could argue, more likely to get a spear (story here bout that and someone lost a thumb, with shorter pushsticks)
Non left tilting arbors, unsuitable clothing and gloves worn,
type of push sticks used, suitable saw which can take a good insert which isn't floppy, bendy/bent
and flatness of table, rigidity of things, general quality and condition.
Those are just a few things which matter, off the top of my head, though I'm probably leaving a good bit out...
Which are likely important factors..........

You have to realize the statistics are from hospital admission records. They are very basic at most so beyond it being a saw injury involving which hand/hands, which fingers and possibly if it was work related, There will be few if any records as to the causes. Records for work injuries are by the state, territory or province the injured person lives in. I seriously doubt anyone is going to go to 65 or so government departments to compile anymore data and each place will not be keeping the same kind of records. That data wouldn't cover injuries from recreational users like most of us.

Jacob's message is valid but like seeing the same commercial 6 times during a one hour tv show, people tune it out and even rebel by doing the opposite. Overselling doesn't always work.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Saw-stop development still on going!
Haven't seen this SCM vid before. I thought it might be a spoof but you never know.

They've made the huge leap to a saw-stop which stops before you actually touch it! Clever boys! Obvious really.
Still got all the other probs of saw stops in general: costs a bomb, not available as retro fit on millions of machines which don't have it, not available on spindle or planer, etc, can be switched off, can fail like any electronic device ...etc etc
But maybe the basic idea of a light coming on when you are too near the blade could be retro fitted, as a warning, but without the actual blade stopping?
Could be made to ring an alarm, which would be good as the only people who would need the thing in the first place would have to be blind to start with! Could be a training method for beginner push stick users?
I wonder what other developments are on the way - something along the lines of an ejector seat perhaps?

 

[mudman]

Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[Jacob]

Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Why?
Do you really need an expensive electronic device to tell you that your fingers are too near a saw blade?
If it's a problem what about just having a little reminder notice stuck on, saying "Keep your fingers away from the blade".
Much cheaper.

 

[Spectric]

They've made the huge leap to a saw-stop which stops before you actually touch it! Clever boys! Obvious really.

That would be the holy grail of instrumentation, a sensor that can respond without any input. How does the sensor determine that flesh is approaching and not wood without contact ?

The best safety measures will always be yourself, never relie on anyone or anything else because at some point you will be let down so rather than put your trust in technology like saw stop just keep your hands and fingers away from the blade by using artificial fingers, ie push sticks and we won't get the grisly images of mutation that occur when people feed themselves to a tablesaw.

 

[Jacob]

That would be the holy grail of instrumentation, a sensor that can respond without any input. How does the sensor determine that flesh is approaching and not wood without contact ?

Water content? Can't be temperature or a cold sausage wouldn't pass the test.
Would damp wood trigger the thing? That'd be another nuisance (confirmation bias slipping in here )

 

[Adam W.]

It provides safety for the woodworker who lacks awareness/experience/training* or those who are just in a rush to get the job done.

*Delete as appropriate.

A recent trip to a newly set up joinery shop........

The employed young joiner is wearing a yellow vest, which is flapping around in the breeze and has hair down to his arris crack. A prime candidate for machinery related surprises, but at least he's wearing a yellow to make him visible when he's laying on the floor in a pool of claret.

 

[Rhossydd]

That would be the holy grail of instrumentation, a sensor that can respond without any input. How does the sensor determine that flesh is approaching and not wood without contact ?

Video camera with AI analysis.

 

[Spectric]

It provides safety for the woodworker who lacks awareness/experience/training* or those who are just in a rush to get the job done.

In other words the very people who should not be using the machine, we cannot protect people from themselves and those who decide to just get stuck in and hope for the best. Maybe the real solution is to have graphic images of potential injuries actually on the table saw in full view so that people will stop, count there fingers and think hard before proceeding which would help with one safety teaching tool which is STAR .