Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[Sgian Dubh]

So far nobody has quite explained how, in a small workshop, you get from CAD to marking up your workpiece, except
Sgian Dubh but he only goes part of the way

I don't believe I can explain transferring information from CAD to the workshop situation any better to you than I have. I'm not quite sure, in the absence of linking CAD to CNC equipment, how working with CAD generated drawings differs from working with drawings developed on a parallel motion drawing board, or similar. In both cases, assuming the drawings are good, the key information is there to make whatever has to be made. If that includes the use of rods to aid construction it's worthwhile producing them.

Not every job needs rods and I've made many a piece without one. Sometimes, as I've described already, a rod can be useful for part of a construction but not necessary for every aspect of a job, e.g., making drawers where the assembled carcase becomes the target size for the drawer: the carcase itself becomes, if you like, the rod.

Maybe the problem is that I just don't quite get what it is you're trying to establish, and perhaps that's related to our different backgrounds, training, custom and practices we've experienced in our different but closely related industries. Sorry if I'm falling short in trying to make myself understood. I guess I'll have to give up trying for clarity and revert to being an observer of this interesting thread. Slainte.

 

[HOJ]

So far nobody has quite explained how, in a small workshop, you get from CAD to marking up your workpiece, except
Sgian Dubh but he only goes part of the way

The best I can offer in my case is working straight off the drawing's and detailing for example:



This is just one of 10 from a project, all different sizes (there are other associated drawing's showing sections). I wouldn't want to waste my time and adding to the cost drawing this out, and 9 others, when it had all the information I need, I just use a tape measure/rule/square.

 

[Jacob]

The best I can offer in my case is working straight off the drawing's and detailing for example:

View attachment 166436

This is just one of 10 from a project, all different sizes (there are other associated drawing's showing sections). I wouldn't want to waste my time and adding to the cost drawing this out, and 9 others, when it had all the information I need, I just use a tape measure/rule/square.

So for instance your cill and the head have 5 mortices. Do you measure each piece from one end and add the dimensions from you chart and pick them out along the length of the tape?
How do you physically transfer your measurements/calculations to the wood? Dividers? Pocket calculator?

 

[Jacob]

...

Maybe the problem is that I just don't quite get what it is you're trying to establish, ....

Just trying to explain the basic rod system which I was taught and which features in all the classic books.
Surprised me too - I'd never heard of it either when I did a C&G course even though I thought I was already a bit of a woodworker! In fact I realised that I'd never even read about it in the stack of mags I'd accumulated over the years and it put me off ever reading another one!

 

[toolsntat]

I think the design is ok

View attachment 166378

Just looking at this picture Steve and I'm getting the impression you are using a 1/4" rebate on the frame ?
I'm not so certain I have ever come across one so shallow with 1/2" being the norm.
Cheers, Andy

 

[Jacob]

Just looking at this picture Steve and I'm getting the impression you are using a 1/4" rebate on the frame ?
I'm not so certain I have ever come across one so shallow with 1/2" being the norm.
Cheers, Andy

Old windows often 1/4". My sash default design (copy of an originall) has them at 5mm.

 

[toolsntat]

Old windows often 1/4". My sash default design (copy of an originall) has them at 5mm.

Let me call it a closing rebate for clarity, not a glazing rebate.
Which rebate are you referring to Jacob?
Cheers, Andy

 

[Jacob]

Let me call it a closing rebate for clarity, not a glazing rebate.
Which rebate are you referring to Jacob?
Cheers, Andy

Oh yes I see it now!
Actually Steve's design is a bit strange but it's only an exercise.

 

[HOJ]

So for instance your cill and the head have 5 mortices. Do you measure each piece from one end and add the dimensions from you chart and pick them out along the length of the tape?
How do you physically transfer your measurements/calculations to the wood? Dividers? Pocket calculator?

These are examples of how I set out now, using linear cumulative dimensions, measure and mark from one end, then transfer across all relevant sections, tape measure and square does for me:



Oh, and I take my casement dimensions off the fabricated frame in case any tolerances are out.

I will close out now.

 

[andrew_2]

So for instance your cill and the head have 5 mortices. Do you measure each piece from one end and add the dimensions from you chart and pick them out along the length of the tape?
How do you physically transfer your measurements/calculations to the wood? Dividers? Pocket calculator?

A close up way to do it if you have a small printer like me, is to run off detail drawings of just the parts you need to mark out, say top view and profile, slice through the drawing and use a marking knife to mark off all the lines you need from the paper direct on to the wood. I just prick through the paper with the knife and then use marking guage or pencil. Providing you keep to a consistent reference edge it works very well and is very simple.

 

[Jacob]

These are examples of how I set out now, using linear cumulative dimensions, measure and mark from one end, then transfer across all relevant sections, tape measure and square does for me:

View attachment 166462View attachment 166463

Oh, and I take my casement dimensions off the fabricated frame in case any tolerances are out.

I will close out now.

What I thought! Enormous scope for error and confusion! 5 significant figures? It's this level of complexity that the rod avoids
Much easier with a rod and once you've got it down no more measuring, especially no measuring from the fabricated frame or similar hacks.

 

[Adam W.]

Provided your joints and layout are perfectly spot on, which invariably they won't be unless you have an imperial shed load of experience, which many here will not have.

 

[Housey210]

My uncle trained as a joiner in the early 50's and everything was marked with a knife. His job as "Shop Boy" was to sand, sand, sand and get rid of the knife marks.

He got good at sanding.

My C&G joinery course at tech college was 1980 to 84, we were taught to always set out with rod, white hardboard, and marking knife. Also, we were not allowed into workshop unless we had our steel boots and white apron on! Worked in council joinery shop so made thousands of windows, modern and box sash, for the estates. However, Maggies right to buy soon saw a drop in our work as those new home owners opted for ali and maintained their own. Redundancy looming I found a job in the drawing office of a big joinery outfit where their prefered method was paper, rolled lining paper, which just did not stand up in the workshops as it went from setting bench to machine shop to assembly bench then back up to drawing office for storage when job went out. The cutting sheet had the same journey. Setting up my own joinery business in 87 I went back to the tried and trusted white hardboard rods. Of the marking knife I never really got on with it though I could see the benefits if cutting shoulders by hand saw as we too were taught- knive, v pair and tenon saw. Each teacher had their own way of cutting the cheeks, most would saw the gauged lines another would split with 1 1/2 chisel. Both worked though I prefered the chisel method. Those days long gone as the first new nachine I bought for my workshop, after buying the dominions from a closing shop, was a tenoner. C&G replaced by NVQs and the college well that downsized and moved to something smaller, selling off the big wadkins, to just using unbranded imported machines!

 

[Jacob]

Very quick drawing of the cill and bottom rail detail of a hypothetical window. with as much detail as I'd need.

Turned, filled out with hatching to make it more readable:

It's ex 3x2" cill with a bevel and a staff bead, with ex 3x2" bottom rail.

Have to detail in bevels etc as they easily throw out the calculations on the position of rest of window components.
Hatched line on right is masonry, followed by clearance gap etc.
The lines which matter are the verticals (on top drawing). The marks along the length are put in on the workpieces with mortice gauge etc

Then to draw in the necessary lines for top rail, glazing bars, positioned and spaced by various means including calculations if necessary.

 

[Jacob]

Provided your joints and layout are perfectly spot on, which invariably they won't be unless you have an imperial shed load of experience, which many here will not have.

You do what HOJ has done with tape, but graphically and/or by calculation etc.
Imperial/metric makes no difference. It's easier for beginners as it self verifies etc. It helps to make joints and layout spot on.
Could be done with no tape or calculations, just dividers and straightedge.
The first point of this is that it verifies that all the details fit and are in correct place - you can check with dividers or tape, with amendments as necessary. Second - no more measuring or calculating you just drop your stuff on take off the marks and check it similarly. Everything refers back to the one accurate drawing.
It really is quick, efficient and minimises error, that's why it was standard normal practice.

 

[Adam W.]

I know that ^, thank you.

 

[Jacob]

I know that ^, thank you.

You've got it at last! Well done!
22 pages so far!

 

[Jacob]

My C&G joinery course at tech college was 1980 to 84,

Mine was 1982 a 6 month intensive version of C&G Joinery under the "Training Opportunities Scheme" or TOPS course. Designed to get people back into work so had to qualify by signing on the dole for a couple of weeks. Followed by one year of "Enterprise Allowance" to help you set up as self employed. Been doing it ever since!

we were taught to always set out with rod, white hardboard, and marking knife. Also, we were not allowed into workshop unless we had our steel boots and white apron on! Worked in council joinery shop so made thousands of windows, modern and box sash, for the estates. However, Maggies right to buy soon saw a drop in our work as those new home owners opted for ali and maintained their own.

She shut down TOPS courses too - they were brilliant and long established with lots of other trades too.

Redundancy looming I found a job in the drawing office of a big joinery outfit where their prefered method was paper, rolled lining paper, which just did not stand up in the workshops as it went from setting bench to machine shop to assembly bench then back up to drawing office for storage when job went out. The cutting sheet had the same journey. Setting up my own joinery business in 87 I went back to the tried and trusted white hardboard rods. Of the marking knife I never really got on with it though I could see the benefits if cutting shoulders by hand saw as we too were taught- knive, v pair and tenon saw.

Same here - "marking" knife not really for marking

Each teacher had their own way of cutting the cheeks, most would saw the gauged lines another would split with 1 1/2 chisel. Both worked though I prefered the chisel method. Those days long gone as the first new nachine I bought for my workshop, after buying the dominions from a closing shop, was a tenoner. C&G replaced by NVQs and the college well that downsized and moved to something smaller, selling off the big wadkins, to just using unbranded imported machines!

I already had a bandsaw and added a Maxi 26 combi. A much maligned piece of kit but in fact did loads of work with it.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/the-ghost-of-the-maxi-26.6645/

 

[Adam W.]

You've got it at last! Well done!
22 pages so far!

Oh dear, 22 pages of you blathering on.

 

[Jacob]

Oh dear, 22 pages of you blathering on.

Just spreading the good news amongst the doubters and unbelievers!