Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[steve355]

Ok, time to take a break. I realised I put the sash rebate and moulding on the wrong side of one of the jambs. So in effect I have 2 right jambs. It was going so well. Something had to go wrong.

 

[HOJ]

That's a shame, probably not one for the purist's, but when I am setting out to run mouldings and rebates on a batch of expensive timber sections, I mark them with a black marker pen, the marks are obviously removed in the process.

 

[toolsntat]

Do I get the impression that this is a practice piece Steve ?
If so trim the jambs length to remove issue and recut the joints.
I don't need to say reduce the height of the layout board to match, do I ?

Cheers, Andy

 

[Jacob]

Ok, time to take a break. I realised I put the sash rebate and moulding on the wrong side of one of the jambs. So in effect I have 2 right jambs. It was going so well. Something had to go wrong.

...

You get into the handed habit after a while and see things in pairs mirroring each other. Clear face and edge marks essential - 2B pencil - big marks so that you can still see traces of it even after you've planed off mouldings and rebates etc.

 

[johnnyb]

handed items is a trap joiners are constantly watching for. (simply because that is such a common and easy error.)

 

[Doug71]

I cut the rebates before the tenons, often one of the tenon cheeks is in line with the rebate so when it comes to cutting the tenons you can just cut along the rebate. Once rebated lay them on the bench in pairs to mark out so less chance of getting it wrong.

 

[johnnyb]

with hand work it doest matter with a tenoner it's tenons whilst square. mould/rebate after.

 

[niall Y]

I would echo what @johnnyb says about handwork. Years back, before I invested in machinery and before the advent of easily available suitable router cutters. I used to purchase the stock ready moulded from my local woodyard.
There is a passage in Charles H Hayward,s 'Woodworking Joints' that shows the methods used for cutting joints in this type of sash stock Interestingly, he still shows the use of a franked joint - rather than a haunched one.

 

[Adam W.]

Its “Door-making and Window Making” by Anon, circa 1910.

The reason I chose it was that it had a step by step method, which for an inexperienced weekend hobbyist like me, trying to make his first window, seemed like it might help me get to the goal. The other texts, Ellis, Cassell’s etc don’t really have the same “step 1, do this. Step 2, do that” approach, rather they are reference texts.

The content actually came from some booklets found at the bottom of Richard Arnold’s grandfathers tool chest, according to the foreword. Richard liked it and passed it on to Lost Art press and they published it.

The author actually describes 2 different variations, one simple casement with bevels followed by a more complex version with mouldings.

Then he goes on to box sashes, Venetian windows and bay windows.

The trouble, from what I can garner, is that you are working from a book which describes one method and then listening to the noise on this thread and trying to incorporate that into the process too. It won't work.

For your sanity, I would advise working through the method in that book, which is sound, and ignoring all the other inputs which you receive on this thread. Once you have done that find, another source and work through that until you have made the window, then you will be equipped to tackle any method which you have found or adapted that works for you.

As for the drawboring on sash windows ditch it, because the pin holes are bored once the sash is assembled and wedged, then finally pinned with straight cut pins. This is a belt and braces system which includes a fail safe should the wedges fall out.

 

[Jacob]

Dunno, the one page we see from the book gives both good and bad advice.
Some of the "noise" may be OK , for instance Adam is right about the draw boring.
Does the book describe the rod? If not there is a serious omission. It's quite basic even if it does seem like a forgotten art, particularly for sashes as they are fairly complicated. - e.g. I count 13 horizontal components on a common 12 pane sash with 11 different sizes and/or profiles (glazing bars and staff beads repeat) plus bevels etc. and 18 more components vertically. This can seriously screw up your marking if you don't have a system!

 

[johnnyb]

he's making a casement not a sash. that particular book has a really good explanation of marking up and how components the same length are marked together. the drawbore joint he's referring to is in the corner of the frame. so wedges are essentially useless.

 

[HOJ]

Its “Door-making and Window Making” by Anon, circa 1910.

The reason I chose it was that it had a step by step method, which for an inexperienced weekend hobbyist like me, trying to make his first window, seemed like it might help me get to the goal. The other texts, Ellis, Cassell’s etc don’t really have the same “step 1, do this. Step 2, do that” approach, rather they are reference texts.

The content actually came from some booklets found at the bottom of Richard Arnold’s grandfathers tool chest, according to the foreword. Richard liked it and passed it on to Lost Art press and they published it.

The author actually describes 2 different variations, one simple casement with bevels followed by a more complex version with mouldings.

Then he goes on to box sashes, Venetian windows and bay windows.

I didn't pick up on this at the time, I have a book from 1980 by Sterling publishing which seems to me to be exactly the same content and title.

Does the book describe the rod? If not there is a serious omission.

Yes, but not as you would like:

 

[Jacob]

he's making a casement not a sash. that particular book has a really good explanation of marking up and how components the same length are marked together. the drawbore joint he's referring to is in the corner of the frame. so wedges are essentially useless.

Yes but it works for a casements too. Good idea to get your hand in on a simpler casement.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, but not as you would like:

Not good!
Those aren't "rods" in the trad sense.
You'd need a "rod" anyway i.e. full size drawing, to be able to extract the marks you need for your measuring sticks.
With the rod system you mark up direct from the full size drawing and don't need the extra process of marking up measuring sticks, and you avoid the random errors this could generate.
And the rod (on a board) follows the work around the shop, so singing from the same sheet at every point.
Look in Ellis, or Greenhalgh/Corkhill/Lowsley. These books and others like them were written primarily for the trade as it was from Georgian to Edwardian eras.

 

[steve355]

Do I get the impression that this is a practice piece Steve ?
If so trim the jambs length to remove issue and recut the joints.
I don't need to say reduce the height of the layout board to match, do I ?

Cheers, Andy

Yes, but I took the measurements from a real window on my shed, thinking I might possibly install it. The existing windows aren’t high quality or attractive. But they are 1) Hardwood 2) stormproof 3) slimline double closed 4) draughtproof so me installing mine just “because I made it” doesn’t seem like a great idea really.

I already got some more wood for another jamb, I considered shortening them but since it’s a learning exercise I might as well do it again.

 

[steve355]

I didn't pick up on this at the time, I have a book from 1980 by Sterling publishing which seems to me to be exactly the same content and title.

View attachment 165482

That’s the book except mine doesn’t have the stair making section.

 

[steve355]

The trouble, from what I can garner, is that you are working from a book which describes one method and then listening to the noise on this thread and trying to incorporate that into the process too. It won't work.

For your sanity, I would advise working through the method in that book, which is sound, and ignoring all the other inputs which you receive on this thread. Once you have done that find, another source and work through that until you have made the window, then you will be equipped to tackle any method which you have found or adapted that works for you.

As for the drawboring on sash windows ditch it, because the pin holes are bored once the sash is assembled and wedged, then finally pinned with straight cut pins. This is a belt and braces system which includes a fail safe should the wedges fall out.

I’ve actually done pretty much exactly what the book said, but I drew up the rod after failing with the story sticks.

The reason is I was struggling to interpret the text, which is very “Victorian” … the author may have been a great joiner, but a terrible communicator and it is full of ambiguity and scant detail. I know you didn’t like the idea of the full-sized rod but for me it was very helpful, and saved me wasting even more wood.

Also, for a beginner it’s more difficult that you’d imagine to get your brain around how all the different surfaces fit together. Looks easy when done, before that, not so easy.

 

[Jacob]

....

The reason is I was struggling to interpret the text, which is very “Victorian” … the author may have been a great joiner, but a terrible communicator and it is full of ambiguity and scant detail. ...

Oddly, the early books (Moxon, Nicholson etc) were written more for the gentry than the tradesmen - who let's face it were most likely utterly illiterate. They'd learn the "traditional" way i.e. skill passed on from person to person from a huge body of accumulated traditional knowledge not actually written down anywhere, but often highly sophisticated.
George Sturt "The Wheelwright's Shop" is good on this - a gent writing about the trades/traditions.

 

[HOJ]

Those aren't "rods" in the trad sense.
You'd need a "rod" anyway i.e. full size drawing, to be able to extract the marks you need for your measuring sticks.
With the rod system you mark up direct from the full size drawing and don't need the extra process of marking up measuring sticks, and you avoid the random errors this could generate.

I am more than aware as to what a rod is and how to use it, for example:

The windows I have made ROD:


The double winder stair ROD

And the rod (on a board) follows the work around the shop, so singing from the same sheet at every point.

Yep, they follow me everywhere!

 

[Adam W.]

he's making a casement not a sash. that particular book has a really good explanation of marking up and how components the same length are marked together. the drawbore joint he's referring to is in the corner of the frame. so wedges are essentially useless.

Oh! My bad. Thy are dovetailed here, but that's a whole different thing and best not started on.