Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[Jacob]

he's making a casement not a sash. that particular book has a really good explanation of marking up and how components the same length are marked together. the drawbore joint he's referring to is in the corner of the frame. so wedges are essentially useless.

Well yes there's a place (a lot of places) for draw boring, but you wouldn't need it if you were making a frame with "horns".
I get your point about putting things together "in situ" by draw boring! I'll bear it in mind, you never know!

 

[Adam W.]

I’ve actually done pretty much exactly what the book said, but I drew up the rod after failing with the story sticks.

The reason is I was struggling to interpret the text, which is very “Victorian” … the author may have been a great joiner, but a terrible communicator and it is full of ambiguity and scant detail. I know you didn’t like the idea of the full-sized rod but for me it was very helpful, and saved me wasting even more wood.

Also, for a beginner it’s more difficult that you’d imagine to get your brain around how all the different surfaces fit together. Looks easy when done, before that, not so easy.

Those books are for apprentices going either to college on day release or being taught at the work place. In addition to the information contained in the book, they would receive clarification about details from either their master or their tutor at college.

Wading through that stuff on your own is a chore because at times the instructions seem so vague, just when you need more explanation.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm not really a purist about stuff like this tbh just because this book says drawbore I wouldn't hesitate to bang 2× 4 inch screws in and use epoxy.
I much prefer traditional proportions though. making a casement is an exercise in lightness and strength. especially when double glazing is involved. those joints need to be right. the frame is less critical being much chunkier and generally not under the same stresses.

 

[johnnyb]

my very favourite thing is deciphering victorian instructions. I find them absolutely not vague if you can piece together exactly what's being said.
the drawings are often superb but so crammed with detail it's just indecipherable. the text equally so. I've read many more modern woodwork books that are just terrible.(Jack Hill for one)
youtube and videos remove that coded bit and can spoon feed you a bit at a time. I don't feel like I've got full value at that point unfortuneatly!

 

[johnnyb]

frames with horns are like unicorns with horns. very rare.

 

[Adam W.]

Then you should try Sheraton for a challenge.

 

[Adam W.]

@johnnyb

I'm currently trawling through these and texts from the 18th and 15th century to try and make sense of Medieval Gothic molding nomenclature......

 

[johnnyb]

funnily enough the guy I know that could certainly cut all those would have no interest at all. he's sort of learned enough to make his corn and he's not an academic sort really. bright though. I watched him cut large gate pineapples simply by hand and eye no lathe.rudimentary marking of course but just touch. it's the thing missing from all those books. find a customer and repeat ad infinitum

 

[johnnyb]

 

[Adam W.]

.

 

[johnnyb]

I can't tell you how ambivalent he is to stuff about stone carving or the ins and outs of stone. not completely self taught ( I remember he did a lettering course 20 years ago) he spent maybe 20 years working for Hollington quarry. just imagine spending such a large amount of time doing just a single discipline. I'm guessing you pass through many many emotions about what your doing. finally when your confident that almost any problem given you is possible to finish at a very high standard it's becomes a simple living.
he works in an open shed in a barn 9 hours a day summer and winter. his tools are kept in a jar of hot water in winter. and the dust has ground away his teeth( according to his dentist) as far away from academia as its possible to be.

 

[steve355]

This thread has diverged somewhat from my original question about sash bar sizes, but I actually found the answer last night in Ellis…

Interestingly, elsewhere in the text, Mr Ellis says that a 1 1/2 in sash bar is actually 1 3/8 ” finished. So none of this really tallies with my 1 1/2” deep, 5/8” wide sash template, I don’t think.

 

[Adam W.]

I didn't pick up on this at the time, I have a book from 1980 by Sterling publishing which seems to me to be exactly the same content and title.

View attachment 165482


Yes, but not as you would like:

View attachment 165483

Well fancy that, it's called a rod in my book too....LOL!

 

[Jacob]

This thread has diverged somewhat from my original question about sash bar sizes, but I actually found the answer last night in Ellis…

Interestingly, elsewhere in the text, Mr Ellis says that a 1 1/2 in sash bar is actually 1 3/8 ” finished. So none of this really tallies with my 1 1/2” deep, 5/8” wide sash template, I don’t think.

My copy of Ellis was 1902 (third edition) and the designs he describes would have been of the time, with larger panes as glass technology had changed completely. Structures would have been heavier to hold the weight of glass and also to make up for the lack of glazing bars which in a multi paned window make up a strong lattice, allowing more slender components.
There are endless variations on the same theme!
Books with many editions may have quite different details as they catch up with contemporary practice.
It might be interesting to see Ellis first edition, probably be an expensive rare book.

 

[Jacob]

Well fancy that, it's called a rod in my book too....LOL!


View attachment 165515

Yes but your so called rod as shown would have to have been marked up from from the full size drawing.
The orthodox rod system misses out this step and marks components direct from the drawing, with no fiddling about with a second set of measuring/marking sticks, nor endless measuring and calculating.
Which book is it? I'd bin it if I were you, it's obviously misleading!

 

[steve355]

My copy of Ellis was 1902 (third edition) and the designs he describes would have been of the time, with larger panes as glass technology had changed completely. Structures would have been heavier to hold the weight of glass and also to make up for the lack of glazing bars which in a multi paned window make up a strong lattice, allowing more slender components.
There are endless variations on the same theme!
Books with many editions may have quite different details as they catch up with contemporary practice.
It might be interesting to see Ellis first edition, probably be an expensive rare book.

I am sure you are right. I think the question I’m interested to answer is that when you read these old texts or look at these old tools, when are they talking about finished sizes, and when are they talking about unfinished sizes? See below, my Charles Nurse sash template, clearly says 5/8, 1 1/2, but perhaps the 1 1/2 is a finished size, perhaps not. Ellis says not. The 5/8 width is definitely a finished size, because I can measure it.

I know, I am obsessive about these things, but unless it is clear, what is what, it’s very difficult to get things right consistently!

 

[Jacob]

I am sure you are right. I think the question I’m interested to answer is that when you read these old texts or look at these old tools, when are they talking about finished sizes, and when are they talking about unfinished sizes? See below, my Charles Nurse sash template, clearly says 5/8, 1 1/2, but perhaps the 1 1/2 is a finished size, perhaps not. Ellis says not. The 5/8 width is definitely a finished size, because I can measure it.

I know, I am obsessive about these things, but unless it is clear, what is what, it’s very difficult to get things right consistently!

Sawn timber tends to be to multiples of one inch, with some 1/2" sizes thrown in.
Talking about finished sizes the common expression is "ex (sawn size)" so e.g. a board planed up finished from sawn size 6x1" would be referred to as "ex" 6x1" and actually be 1/4" smaller in both directions, or thereabouts.
I tend to think in imperial for sawn sizes and metric for finished, so "ex 4x1" would end up being finished at 96x19mm (or thereabouts!)

 

[Adam W.]

I am sure you are right. I think the question I’m interested to answer is that when you read these old texts or look at these old tools, when are they talking about finished sizes, and when are they talking about unfinished sizes? See below, my Charles Nurse sash template, clearly says 5/8, 1 1/2, but perhaps the 1 1/2 is a finished size, perhaps not. Ellis says not. The 5/8 width is definitely a finished size, because I can measure it.

I know, I am obsessive about these things, but unless it is clear, what is what, it’s very difficult to get things right consistently!

View attachment 165516

I would go with what's printed on your tools, use them and find out for yourself.

By asking these questions, as you rightly should, you put yourself at the pointy end of what is known and what isn't.

This is where you will find people who think they know about this stuff and sound convincing, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

To really find out exactly what's what, or at least give yourself enough knowledge to realise when people are merely guessing, you should experiment for yourself.

 

[Jacob]

I would go with what's printed on your tools, use them and find out for yourself.

By asking these questions, as you rightly should, you put yourself at the pointy end of what is known and what isn't.

This is where you will find people who think they know about this stuff and sound convincing, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

To really find out exactly what's what, or at least give yourself enough knowledge to realise when people are merely guessing, you should experiment for yourself.

You seem to be keeping this up Adam. Is it directed at me or somebody else?
TBH - hate to say it but you are giving the impression that you have never actually made any sash windows and really don't know what you are talking about

 

[johnnyb]

that's for vertical sliding sashes. I thought you were making casements?