Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[whitty]

The basic procedure.
Whether it's one sash or a whole set you do them in one batch, which may mean a lot of components, hundreds even, so your cutting list has to be efficient. Handy to have it on a black/white board on the wall so you can see it from wherever you are, and cross reference with whatever pieces of wood are in front of you as the job goes on.

1 Do design drawings for the thing, based on dimensions taken from window openings, room size, whatever it is
2 Draw up a rod i.e. the final working drawing, transferred to a board, usually just cross sections, though an arch etc might need a rod of the elevation on a sheet of ply
Edit. The very first things you mark on the rods are the heights and widths of the opening the thing is going in to. You then work everything from those marks, so they have to be right
3 Work out a cutting list from the rod.
4 Order glass cut, to sizes from the rod, or large sheets to cut it yourself, which I usually do.
5 Cut up sawn stock, according to the cutting list, working from largest sizes/sections/lengths downwards - cut from the smallest pieces of stock available. This is basic stock control and is least wasteful. If you do short pieces too soon you may find you haven't enough long pieces left when you get around to them
All glazing bars treated as through, to be separated later as necessary. You could do all sash boxes as one batch and sashes themselves as another, as long as you are working them from the same rod, but it's handy to get all the planing to size done for everything, in one long session
6 Plane up the sawn components individually, marking all with face and edge marks.
n.b You don’t plane “stock” first, you cut it to size first, with due allowances for planing, and then plane.
7 Start the marking up procedure by stacking components on the rod with edge marks opposite so that you get left/right pieces. Mark one side. This is just a routine even if they aren’t handed - just in case. Stack just a convenient height for marking with a set square. Tick them off the cutting list as you go.
8 Carry marks all round with a pencil.
Mark along the lengths with marking gauges and mortice gauge.
Mark for everything. On a door you can mark up for hinges and hardware. On a sash you can mark for pulleys and pockets etc. You have to decide where these things are going so you might as well mark them on the rod too, rather than thinking of them later.
9 Cut all mortices with bevels for wedges, and tenon cheeks and haunches only - not shoulders yet. Everything is still in the square at this point so rebates and mouldings easy to run. It's handy to work to the lines you've marked up as soon as possible, as they are going to be lost as the work progresses
10 Cut all rebates and mouldings

Going out now - more later!

The way i was trained in the 60s. Still use the rod method today, why? because it works.

 

[Adam W.]

Well you'll just have to wait! It's quite a job getting the information together and I've got other stuff to do.

A "fully marked up rod" would be simply fully detailed full size cross sectional drawings, or elevation drawing if needed, but in practice you tend to just stick in the marks you need. OK while you are on the job but years later and the thing might be totally unrecognisable.
I've got photos here and there I'll see what I can dig out.

Jolly good, happy to wait for the detailed explanation of setting out and marking up the rod.

 

[Jacob]

The way i was trained in the 60s. Still use the rod method today, why? because it works.

Exactly. And it's not "my" method it's how we were taught - in the 80s for me I was a late starter.
Come to think - a lot of people have probably used variations of the process: anybody making model aircraft probably had KeilKraft plans and they'd cut stuff and pin it onto the plan. Or dress makers and patterns similarly. It's a very basic common process.

 

[Adam W.]

My uncle trained as a joiner in the early 50's and everything was marked with a knife. His job as "Shop Boy" was to sand, sand, sand and get rid of the knife marks.

He got good at sanding.

 

[Jacob]

My uncle trained as a joiner in the early 50's and everything was marked with a knife.

Possibly a mistake, which a lot of people still make! "Marking" knife is a misnomer, except in certain circumstances.

His job as "Shop Boy" was to sand, sand, sand and get rid of the knife marks.

He got good at sanding.

Well he would do!

 

[Adam W.]

Pretty sure it wasn't a mistake.

That overmantle from 1900 I dismantled in Green Park was covered in knife and scribe marks.

 

[Jacob]

Pretty sure it wasn't a mistake.

That overmantle from 1900 I dismantled in Green Park was covered in knife and scribe marks.

Well it depends. I hardly ever saw them in the straight joinery I was copying (except as commented on above, possibly indelible marks put by the top man for the bench hand to follow)

 

[Jacob]

Looking at some snaps. This is a good one. The cutting list on a board so it can be seen from the bench, being ticked off, no fiddling about with backs of envelopes and scrawled notes.
Apologies for mixing units that's how I work.
Guess what it's for. Clue; it has eight legs but is not a spider.

Answer: two kitchen tables with drawers.

 

[HOJ]

decided I’d get the tools and skills to do it myself in a traditional manner.... so headed down a huge rabbit hole of moulding planes and making moulding planes etc because I found it all so fascinating, and mostly a lost art.

It is an interesting subject I agree, and I have repaired/restored many an old window, however, have you thought about the type of glass you intend to use, as as long as you are aware that in replacing windows they can be no worse in their energy preformance as the one's being replaced, I get to sound like a stuck record, but Building Regs do apply, as windows are classed as controlled fitting's, having said that If the property is listed you may have a reasonable argument to revert to the original form, as long as it can be evidenced.

 

[Jacob]

It is an interesting subject I agree, and I have repaired/restored many an old window, however, have you thought about the type of glass you intend to use, as as long as you are aware that in replacing windows they can be no worse in their energy preformance as the one's being replaced, I get to sound like a stuck record, but Building Regs do apply, as windows are classed as controlled fitting's, having said that If the property is listed you may have a reasonable argument to revert to the original form, as long as it can be evidenced.

I always passed mine off as repairs to existing and never had a problem, even if 100% replacement.
Always used the original glass where possible, with 3mm horticultural glass for replacement - it has a ripple a bit like the old stuff

 

[johnnyb]

the first thing I'll say is then and now these guys weren't agonising over one window. they could be making thousands of the same. so they didn't mess up a cill because they had a zinc template made up. everything they did was mostly a variation of the same few patterns.

 

[Jacob]

Some very basic marking from the rod.
A short scrap of MFC marked up for sides for CD storage boxes, with marks for dovetail shoulders and rebates to hold partitions. They are stacked up in pairs with edge marks opposite. This is normal routine, even if they aren't handed, but they are here, to put best face outwards.
Gravity clamp on top. Hammer is there because I was tapping them back, to line up nicely.
Next job is to take the marks all round the other three sides, one piece at a time, with a square.
There is a routine with a square - the stock is held against either a face or an edge side marked, for regularity.
There are lots of little routines to reduce error.

Some of the tools for the job, on a bit of 6" board perfect for marking up as a rod

 

[Jacob]

the first thing I'll say is then and now these guys weren't agonising over one window. they could be making thousands of the same. so they didn't mess up a cill because they had a zinc template made up. everything they did was mostly a variation of the same few patterns.

I hadn't thought of templates. That's a good idea. Other trades use them I've seen them in old wheelwright shops etc.
Templates for cill, stiles/rails, glazing bars, different designs just drop them on to the rod and move them about to fit the overall size, and regular space, then draw around them.
Any references to this?

 

[HOJ]

3 years ago I had the plastic windows in my Victorian house replaced, and had a local joiner do them in wood because I wanted to restore the house to its former glory, as much as possible . He did a nice job, but they weren’t as authentic as I imagined

I always passed mine off as repairs to existing and never had a problem, even if 100% replacement.
Always used the original glass where possible, with 3mm horticultural glass for replacement - it has a ripple a bit like the old stuff

 

[Jacob]

My stuff was all copies of existing, or if originals not in place I'd use totally authentic design and details copied from elsewhere, which I guess your man did not.

 

[johnnyb]

the cill templates were just marked on each end. many templates were just off cuts from the first one. I'm not sure about the joint scribing templates I guess they may still work even with a slightly different plane. they could often be found in different styles depending on the bit being marked and the method used( some have brass wearstrips.) why that would be necessary.

 

[johnnyb]

usually just run a pencil round or with a sharp chisel lightly.

 

[HOJ]

My stuff was all copies of existing, or if originals not in place I'd use totally authentic design and details copied from elsewhere, which I guess your man did not.

Can't be anything to copy or replicate, hence my point about BR's and new windows, just trying to help the OP from catching a cold in the long run

 

[HOJ]

many templates were just off cuts from the first one

I always keep off cuts for reference, but there comes a point in time when the shop isn't big enough for all them.

 

[Jacob]

Can't be anything to copy or replicate, hence my point about BR's and new windows, just trying to help the OP from catching a cold in the long run

Have to look around the neighbourhood and find something! The original windows wouldn't have been unique.
The main problem is usually the mouldings - you can't buy anything to match most period mouldings and I used to make my own spindle cutters to match period samples. Not difficult and very cheap!