Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[steve355]

This evening getting on with my project, I think I learnt the “rods vs story sticks” lesson.

I‘d been working from the “window making and door making” book which took a story stick approach, basically saying measure the window space with the stick and then set out marks P Q Z X T Y V W1 W2 X etc on the stick. From that somehow I was supposed to be able to lay out my sill and my tenons on the jambs.

I ended up missing the main sill rebate completely and with a ridiculous scribed tenon that surely isn’t what was intended. Basically I got it all totally wrong.

(I know the sill isn’t the correct width, that’s the only wood I had, and I thought I might make it work. I will go and get a piece of wood to make a proper sill.)

After this experience i was going to go and get some wood (mdf, for erasure?) to try to draw out a height rod so I could see what I am doing. Instead I thought I had wasted enough wood for one day, so I thought I would draw it out on paper first.

Now I can see exactly what I’m doing, all the rebates, bevels, shape of the tenons et cetera needs to be.

any constructive comments welcome (yes, I know the first attempt was a disaster, that’s why I’m doing it again)

 

[Jacob]

This evening getting on with my project, I think I learnt the “rods vs story sticks” lesson.

I‘d been working from the “window making and door making” book which took a story stick approach, basically saying measure the window space with the stick and then set out marks P Q Z X T Y V W1 W2 X etc on the stick. From that somehow I was supposed to be able to lay out my sill and my tenons on the jambs.

I ended up missing the main sill rebate completely and with a ridiculous scribed tenon that surely isn’t what was intended. Basically I got it all totally wrong.

(I know the sill isn’t the correct width, that’s the only wood I had, and I thought I might make it work. I will go and get a piece of wood to make a proper sill.)

View attachment 165071View attachment 165072

After this experience i was going to go and get some wood (mdf, for erasure?) to try to draw out a height rod so I could see what I am doing. Instead I thought I had wasted enough wood for one day, so I thought I would draw it out on paper first.

View attachment 165073

Now I can see exactly what I’m doing, all the rebates, bevels, shape of the tenons et cetera needs to be.

any constructive comments welcome (yes, I know the first attempt was a disaster, that’s why I’m doing it again)

You've taken on quite a challenge! "Story sticks" are useless, you need a full size sectional drawing.
Yes to MFC shelf lengths for the rods, cheaper than real wood and you can keep re-using them and they are nice and flat/straight.
It's a learning experience. What is the design? You need a design drawing first - you have to know very well what it is you are trying to make. Best source of info is an old window to pull apart and measure/draw. Like an anatomy class!

Just tracked down my generic sash window drawing. I used this design a lot, with variations, in the absence of any better information of what the original might have been. I was wrong about all sashes being in rebates, but they are mostly in stony areas like Derbyshire. Early Sash Window / Shutters RESEARCH

 

[steve355]

It's a learning experience. What is the design? You need a design drawing first - you have to know very well what it is you are trying to make. Best source of info is an old window to pull apart and measure/draw. Like an anatomy class!

Design is from the 1910 book, apparently the author had been a joiner for 30 years so I guess it’s 1800s.

it’s a bit weird with moulding around the inside of the frame, except for the inside sill which has a chamfer. Around the outside it has chamfered arrises too. I’ll probably use a different design for the next one, but its fine for learning.

 

[Adam W.]

Good grief!....A storey stick is a rod. It's just a length of batten with all of your layout markings on it including O/O height and width and all the other gubbins. For a window, one side for height and one side for width including the sill and its rebates. If you get confused, put the sill and its rebate dimensions on one edge instead, leaving the other edge for other things if you wish.

The reason it's called a storey stick/ story stick, is because it was originally used to measure the height between floors and to layout other components in buildings (storeys UK /story US), much like the rod used for timber framing and the Usanians now use it as the term for a rod in joinery as well.

Carry on.

 

[Adam W.]

Or in the case of a single storey building, bottom of sole plate to top of wall plate.

Note: It has nothing to do with Jackanory or Watch with Mother.

 

[steve355]

I’m pretty sure that if my full time job every day was making windows to a standard design, and I knew the design backwards, then a stick brought back from site could be quickly marked up and it would be no problem to set out the work. There would be no need for the bother of the “rod”.

But doing this for the first time, it was very hard to visualise from lines on the stick how the whole thing was going to work. Hence completely messing it up and wasting half my wood,

I read in Cassell’s carpentry that the rods were provided by the architect and used by the “setter outer” to set out the work. I could imagine a new build of a posh Victorian villa with drawings and rods provided to the contractors by the architects.

Whereas storey sticks would be very suitable for replacement windows from a standard design.

Whatever, I’m off to Wickes now to get me an MDF shelf to do some full size drawings on.

 

[Adam W.]

Yes that's ideal, but the stick you bring back from site is the rod/storey stick.

Don't overthink it, it's not complicated.

(I was referring only to the stick that you mark out on site with the aperture on. Layout the window out on that too, then it will fit....always.).

 

[HOJ]

We all have different approaches to setting out, I make a rod to keep all the critical dimensions in one place and details that I can easily forget, here's a picture of a few I am using at this time for a window and door project:



Which helps me get all these positions accurately set:





I also have drawings/sketches of the sections and joint positions for M & T's which coordinate with rebates etc:

 

[Jacob]

Good grief!....A storey stick is a rod. I

No it isn't.
A rod is a form of final working drawing, literally, in that you work from it with components laid on, etc.
If you wanted story sticks you would do well to draw up a rod first and then lay on your stick to take off measurements and turn it into a "story stick", in your sense.
Or vice versa you could start drawing your rod from a story stick with basic measurements taken from a window opening etc.
Everything gets worked out graphically on the rod - replacing error prone calculations which get really complicated especially around cills and bevels. The more essential detail you put in the fewer the errors.
You could not get all the details on one line on a story stick - it's one dimensional. A rod is two dimensional.

..........

The reason it's called a storey stick/ story stick, is because it was originally used to measure the height between floors and to layout other components in buildings (storeys UK /story US), much like the rod used for timber framing and the Usanians now use it as the term for a rod in joinery as well.

Carry on.

Most useful for stair measurements and calculations

PS There's lots of stuff about rods in Ellis. e.g. see page 390. Full size sectional drawings.
Although in practice the essentials are marked in but not necessarily filled out, and could be unrecognisable except to the man on the job!

 

[Jacob]

Just a typical detail of how you work things out with a rod.
I wanted the bead to be exactly in the centre of a pair of panelled 18mm cupboard doors.
Start with the outer stiles (off the pic).
Then draw the centre line (but should be marked CL somewhere!)
Then draw in the actual bead on the line, bead size derived from a cutter in my plough plane.
Then draw in the clearance gaps and the stiles themselves.
A bit of hatching to make it clear what's what.
Not very tidy or precise but good enough for the job in hand

This is the cupboard. Didn't have any pitch pine but painted them a nice shade of iron oxide instead

 

[Adam W.]

No it isn't.

It is and was in use well before paper was available for the production of full scale drawings.

 

[Adam W.]

We all have different approaches to setting out, I make a rod to keep all the critical dimensions in one place and details that I can easily forget, here's a picture of a few I am using at this time for a window and door project:

View attachment 165077

Which helps me get all these positions accurately set:

View attachment 165078



I also have drawings/sketches of the sections and joint positions for M & T's which coordinate with rebates etc:

View attachment 165079

Precisely, and I use rods just like that to make windows, doors chairs, chests and new timber frames for the house in exactly the same way. I never bother to make a full scale construction drawing for something I already know how to make.

 

[johnnyb]

these were remade by an old guy that lives in Longnor a decade or more ago. simply beautiful work.
the purpose of showing where to measure in the window and door book is to stop you making your sashes to short as the bottom is angled. often another weather step was incorporated in the cill bottom sash.

 

[Jacob]

It is and was in use well before paper was available for the production of full scale drawings.

Rods are drawn on boards. Direct descendant of the lines found scratched on old temples floors etc.
They can be drawn on paper but usually not as it isn't durable enough in the workshop.
"Story stick" seems to be an American thing and much simpler.
Not mentioned in Ellis though "story rod" is, briefly, but only apropos staircases, which makes sense.
Ellis goes on at length about "rods" - a different thing altogether.

 

[Jacob]

Precisely, and I use rods just like that to make windows, doors chairs, chests and new timber frames for the house in exactly the same way. I never bother to make a full scale construction drawing for something I already know how to make.

What you have all the design details and dimensions in your head as well? You don't have to work anything out on paper, or board?

 

[Adam W.]

The dimensions are on the rod as marked. I know the aperture that the window or door has to go in, which is marked on the rod first and then the door or window is laid out on the rod between those marks.

Much like the chap in the video, who you seem to think doesn't know what he is doing. Gang everything up on a bench and scribe it all at once using a square.

It's simple, why make it complicated?

 

[Jacob]

Gang everything up on a bench and scribe it all at once using a square....

Might work OK for something very simple but generally not a good idea.

.

It's simple, why make it complicated?

Because it isn't simple.

 

[johnnyb]

that cill to pulley stiles joint is hard to understand in that lost art book but its a cross wedged housing joint with a couple of brads. better shown in cassells.

 

[Jacob]

Precisely, and I use rods just like that to make windows, doors chairs, chests and new timber frames for the house in exactly the same way. I never bother to make a full scale construction drawing for something I already know how to make.

HOJs "rods"are not rods in the normal joinery sense They are story sticks. At least thats what the Americans call them

 

[johnnyb]

its quite rare for the front bits to be tongued onto the pulley stiles despite all books and modern practice always saying do it. they are just nailed together.