Salmen Master Oil Stone.

[swagman]

Interesting thread. Most of the stone performance opinions expressed here are somewhat subjective. It would be quite interesting to see a microscope shot of the honed edges.

AJB; I don't have the right gear to forward what you are requesting. The best I could do was a provide evidence of a paper test to show the chisels cutting edge for sharpness. Are my findings to be construed as subjective. I tried to keep an open mind when comparing the stones cut with oil, then water., If that's not good enough, then ignore my findings, and do your own independent tests and forward the results to the forum. I for one would be interested in comparing the 2 findings.

regards Stewie;

 

[MIGNAL]

The soft Arkansas that I have cuts much slower with water. In fact as DW described, initially it cuts quite well with water but after half a dozen strokes or so it seems to clog. That's your lot. You get very little action after that. Oil works much better on my example.

 

[bugbear]

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone.

There may be a jargon/communication problem. To avoid it: what is your definition of "oil stone" (and/or "true oil stone") ?

BugBear

 

[swagman]

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone.

There may be a jargon/communication problem. To avoid it: what is your definition of "oil stone" (and/or "true oil stone") ?

BugBear

What a wonderful question BB; since I starting purchasing different types of 2nd hand natural stones from the uk, I found it astonishing that nearly all of these stones have been used long term with oil. Why in the u.k. What was the impetus to not use water. Was it based on concerns with rust, the cooler wetter climate, or long held tradition. I honestly have no idea.

Take for example the condition I received the following Welsh Idwall Grecian Hone. Caked in years of oil use, inhibiting its capacity to function effectively. And why would you choose to use oil in the 1st place with this type of stone.



And here is the same stone after being cleaned up.



And here is the same stone being used today to hone a spokeshave blade. Its now a water stone. A quick wipe down with a damp rag, and the stone surface is ready for use next time its needed.



And look at the condition of the Ark stone when I received it. Covered in years of oil use. No wonder is was a terribly slow cutter..



The same Ark after being leeched of old oil and now a dedicated to water stone.



And the packaging on this Salmen U.K stone. It states USE WITH FINE OIL.



Why would you use oil on a quality Scotch Dalmore Blue.



Stewie;

 

[bugbear]

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone.

There may be a jargon/communication problem. To avoid it: what is your definition of "oil stone" (and/or "true oil stone") ?

BugBear

What a wonderful question BB; since I starting purchasing different types of 2nd hand natural stones from the uk, I found it astonishing that nearly all of these stones have been used long term with oil. Why in the u.k. What was the impetus to not use water. Was it based on concerns with rust, the cooler weather, or long held tradition. I honestly have no idea.

Take for example the condition I received the following Welsh Idwall Grecian Hone. Caked in years of oil use, inhibiting its capacity to function effectively. And why would you choose to use oil in the 1st place with this type of stone.

And here is the same stone after being cleaned up.


And here is the same stone being used today to hone a spokeshave blade. Its now a water only stone. A quick wipe down with a rag, and the stone surface is ready for use next time its needed.

And look at the condition of the Ark stone when I received it. Covered in years of oil use. No wonder is was a terribly slow cutter..

The same Ark after being leeched of old oil and now dedicated to water only.

And the packaging on this Salmen U.K stone. It states USE WITH FINE OIL.

Why would you use oil on a quality Scotch Dalmore Blue.

Stewie;

OK; you didn't directly answer my question. But from what you did say, may I infer that your definition of "oil stone" is:
honing stone whose best performance is given when used with oil as a lubricant
and "true oil stone" is merely a synonym, but with extra emphasis?

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Excuse me butting in here, but I think there was another lubricant in widespread use, more convenient than oil or water.

Spit!

I wonder what the cumulative effect of a lifetime of spit on a stone looks like?
Would it be different if the spit was from a heavy smoker?

Another topic for research! :wink:

 

[swagman]

OK; you didn't directly answer my question.

BB; if you refer back to my post to Kees, I did answer that question. You just didn't take the time to read it,.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

 

[D_W]

Similar to water - the effect - but with a little bit of long term residue, and eventually a stinky stone.

 

[swagman]

Excuse me butting in here, but I think there was another lubricant in widespread use, more convenient than oil or water.

Spit!

I wonder what the cumulative effect of a lifetime of spit on a stone looks like?
Would it be different if the spit was from a heavy smoker?

Another topic for research! :wink:

Andy; I would hate think of the cumulative effect of sharing that same stone with others.,

Stewie; #-o

 

[D_W]

I don't understand the desire to call ark/washita stones "not true oilstones". Not trying to pick a fight, but this again goes back to:
* the historical basis on how these stones were used (it's extensive, and was mostly done by professionals)
* what the manufacturer of the stones recommended - they'd have been in the feedback loop for these stones, and if water was better than oil, they certainly would've learned that from their customers

Certainly, you can use water on oilstones. You can use oil on a lot of waterstones, too. In each case, the way the stone works will change, and if you prefer it, then that's the way you should go.

It doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of very purposefully created precedent otherwise, though.

 

[bugbear]

OK; you didn't directly answer my question.

BB; if you refer back to my post to Kees, I did answer that question. You just didn't take the time to read it,.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

I read that; I then re-read it carefully; I then asked my question.

But I'll try to be helpful'; every body loves multiple choice!

An oil stone is:

1) A stone that gives its best results when used with oil as a lubricant
2) A stone that only gives useful results when used with oil as a lubricant
3) A stone that is damaged when used with any thing BUT oil as a lubricant
4) other (please state)
5) (ADDED) A stone that is most commonly used with oil as a lubricant

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

If the lubricant is too thin a natural stone (Washita and finer) are going to glaze and get plugged. Synthetics will too at a point. The occasional weekend woodworker may never notice this but somebody who hones tools five or six days a week surely will. I guarantee it.

The multiple choice question leaves out the most important element -- that of time and amount of usage. Use an oil no thinner than 3 in 1. I've learned it the hard way. The lubricant has to be viscous enough to hold the metal swarf in suspension for more than just a few moments. In the fullness of time you'll get better performance using oil on what have traditionally been called "oilstones."

 

[Corneel]

That's a good explanation Charles. I finally understand a little what's going on with the various fluids.

Of course you should wipe the stone clean after use and use fresh oil the next time. Otherwise it is no wonder the stone gets filthy.

 

[D_W]

If the lubricant is too thin a natural stone (Washita and finer) are going to glaze and get plugged. Synthetics will too at a point. The occasional weekend woodworker may never notice this but somebody who hones tools five or six days a week surely will. I guarantee it.

The multiple choice question leaves out the most important element -- that of time and amount of usage. Use an oil no thinner than 3 in 1. I've learned it the hard way. The lubricant has to be viscous enough to hold the metal swarf in suspension for more than just a few moments. In the fullness of time you'll get better performance using oil on what have traditionally been called "oilstones."

On coarse stones, that's true. On something finer, it doesn't matter too much (WD 40 will work on a broken in washita or a trans or black stone, but it's not that good for use on a fresh soft stone, and definitely not on an india stone or crystolon).

There's also the issue of habits. Some of the stone sellers recommend oiling the stone and then wiping of most of the excess, and in that case, a large flat iron will still work well on a fine stone. If the stone is covered with a layer of "loose" oil, though, like medium mineral oil, working the back of something can be an exercise in suspending metal over a layer of oil (nothing is occurring for the most part).

But it shouldn't even be difficult enough for us to have to discuss it at all. If it's not working well, try something else until it is. I don't believe there would've been much stone flattening or "surface conditioning" by a professional user 200 years ago. I don't know what they'd have had available for oil, though, either - something fish or whale related?

 

[MIGNAL]

Probably many types of non drying oils, anything will do, especially if thinned with pure turps. I use mineral oil with a touch of turps added, works fine on the Arkansas. I use water on my scotch hone, no slurry stone.

 

[Trafalgar]

I used WD 40 on a Norton surgical black Ark for a long while and it has turned out to be a HUGE mistake. You can see the plugged grain under a glancing light and it hardly cuts at all now. I urge anybody using natural Arkansas stones of any kind to not use a water-thin lubricant. Use something at least as viscous at 3 in 1 or whatever brand name the typical household oil is sold under in your country. I wish I'd just kept using the oil Norton sells to be honest. I did at first.

 

[D_W]

I used WD 40 on a Norton surgical black Ark for a long while and it has turned out to be a HUGE mistake. You can see the plugged grain under a glancing light and it hardly cuts at all any longer. I urge anybody using natural Arkansas stones of any kind to not use a water-thin lubricant. Use something at least as viscous at 3 in 1 or whatever brand name the typical household oil is sold under in your country. I wish I'd just kept using the oil Norton sells to be honest. I did at first.

I haven't had similar experience, though I have both (as in the norton branded oil). And a jug of light mineral oil from kitchen supply (same thing as the norton oil).

I never have appreciated the norton or light mineral oils on a black or trans stone, but it's fantastic stuff in an IM 313. I have such little appreciation for a very fine stone with that oil that I sold the norton trans out of the IM 313 that I have and replaced it with a slightly coarser medium fineness stone from Dan's. (the fact that you can't use an IM 313 without gobs of oil ending up on the stones doesn't help, either - maybe you're using less oil).

I've got one trans and one black stone, and neither has stopped cutting as a result of using WD 40. The black stone, it would be hard to tell if there was swarf left in the pores because of the color, but the trans stone tells you pretty easily and quickly whether or not there's anything clogging it. If there is, you can see it, but it wipes off clean and clear with WD 40.

Possible maybe that some of the WD40 dried on your stone leaving behind the film that it leaves behind?

 

[Trafalgar]

One feels like they need something thinner on a black Ark. I agree. I did too. In the end, however, it's a Faustian bargain.

 

[memzey]

I always use baby oil. Not for any reason other than we had a load left over after my youngest outgrew the need for it and found that it worked well so I stuck with it. Pretty cheap and easily available too.

 

[memzey]

Just to add: I'm using that on a lillywhite washita and surgical black Ark. I find it does work well and neither stone gets clogged.