Salmen Master Oil Stone.

[ED65]

Why would you do that. !!!!

It's an alternative (very well-established) way of cleaning heavily gunked up stones. Ditto boiling in water with washing soda, spraying with oven cleaner, soaking in a solvent (gasoline, kerosene, white spirit and a few others) and soaking in a caustic soda solution.

With natural stones that have no factory impregnation these methods make absolutely no difference to the stone to abrading off the surface when dressing it flat. Plus they retain the original surface(s) if that's desired and you don't have to use much elbow grease.

 

[ED65]

Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.

You know you can replenish that?

 

[swagman]

It's an alternative (very well-established) way of cleaning heavily gunked up stones. Ditto boiling in water with washing soda, spraying with oven cleaner, soaking in a solvent (gasoline, kerosene, white spirit and a few others) and soaking in a caustic soda solution.

Edge; we are talking about a man made Norton Oilstone, thats pre loaded with oil by the manufacture for very good reasons. If you then leech the oil out, it will render the stone over porous, beyond its capacity to hold any surface oil. If that's the well established method of resolving a gunked up and loaded Norton Oil Stones, go for it. It wont have any impact on the way I maintain my Norton Stones.

 

[essexalan]

Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.

You know you can replenish that?

The secret is not to boil the stone so long that it removes whatever Norton have loaded the stone with, something I never quite achieved. Having just turned a grey Cretan stone in to black Turkey stone using oil and heat then I suppose I could use a similar procedure on a Norton stone but kindly clue me do.

 

[bugbear]

Only cleaned up man made oilstones by boiling with a bio active detergent, problem there is that it also removes the pre-treatment that Norton use so the stone becomes very porous.

You know you can replenish that?

The secret is not to boil the stone so long that it removes whatever Norton have loaded the stone with, something I never quite achieved. Having just turned a grey Cretan stone in to black Turkey stone using oil and heat then I suppose I could use a similar procedure on a Norton stone but kindly clue me do.

IIRC Norton use a vacuum impregnation process, and heated petroleum jelly (steady now ).

BugBear

 

[essexalan]

Definitely not for the amateur then! Well none of mine need doing anyway and most of the naturals work just fine with water or cutting fluid. Keep them clean and you will never have the problem. Hmmm heated petroleum jelly ;0)

 

[ED65]

It wont have any impact on the way I maintain my Norton Stones.

It wasn't intended to Stewie, just giving out the info. I know you like to have your stones dead flat so your prep will neatly rid you of any loaded surface while you achieve that.

But for someone who doesn't want to do that the other methods are all viable ways of cleaning a stone, even a synthetic. With care none will remove all the pre-loading, but any of them do have that potential if the stone is left for too long (in one go or in stages).

That potential shouldn't worry anyone though, give how incredibly easy it is to oil-load a stone. From the instructions that came with Carborundums back in their early days:

Use a thin clear oil. If stone cuts too rapidly, temper by soaking the stone in a pan of hot Vaseline, filling the pores of the stone. For cleaning stone wash with kerosene.

I've also read of using a solution of petroleum jelly and white spirit (or any other suitable solvent) and soaking the stone in it until it won't absorb any more. The spirit carries the jelly into the stone, after it evaporates it leaves it behind.

 

[swagman]

BB; I have spoken with Saint-Gobain Abrasives, manufacturer of Norton Stones, back in Oct 2016 on this very subject, and they do not use petroleum jelly as part of their process. That came from their bonding expert, Rao Jagannath.

Hi Stewart,
Thanks for your enquiry, I am passing it on to our bonded expert Rao who will be able to give you sound advice.

Rao,
Stewart's enquiry below is out of my league, can you please guide him in the right direction with the wheels below.
Kind regards,
David Grech
State Manager
Saint-Gobain Abrasives
0407179282

 

[ED65]

Whether Norton use petroleum jelly or some proprietary compound is interesting as far as it goes, but on a practical front what matters surely is that we can use petroleum jelly to get the same effect?

 

[swagman]

Whether Norton use petroleum jelly or some proprietary compound is interesting as far as it goes, but on a practical front what matters surely is that we can use petroleum jelly to get the same effect?

Then test your theory using Petroleum Jelly, and report back your findings.

Stewie;

 

[swagman]

As requested; I am forwarding the feedback after testing the Arkansas stone with water as the only lubricant. The 1st observation to note was that after spraying the top surface of the stone with water, the water did not soak within the stone, but maintained a unified float of film. That indicates to me that the stone is not porous by nature, but more tightly bound within its make up.

The 2nd observation to make is that when the stone surface was being worked by the chisel, the sound being given off was much deeper in tone to that experienced when oil was used as lubricant. A much more grittier sound. One could feel the chisels edge being worked in closer contact with the grain structure of the stone, versus having a float of oil interfere between the 2 surfaces.

The time taken to form an appreciable secondary bevel imo was 1/2 that compared to using oil, but apologies need to be made, as I did nor record the exact time difference. The sheen formed on the secondary bevel, to my eyes, looked no different to that being worked on oil, but one would expect it to be slightly lower.

The level of sharpness straight from the stone more than matched my requirements within woodworking, as testament by the paper test shown within the 2 following photo's.

Conclusion; as a once only test, I see no valid reason to return to using oil on this Arkansas stone. If any issues later arise on the question of water versus oil in preventing the stones surface from glazing over or clogging up, that would be dealt with during the normal practice of resurfacing during periodical stone flattening.

All attempts have been made to remain impartial within my findings.

Hopefully you found the above mentioned topic of some interest. If you decide to de-oil any of your sharpening stones in the future, make sure they are not a man-made Norton Crystolon/Carborundum, as this will likely destroy the manufacturers oil pre-fill.

On to the photo's.

regards Stewie;

 

[essexalan]

Personally I would be very careful mixing petroleum jelly with solvents or you may end up inventing napalm. Some of the SiC stones produced had no pre load applied.
Interesting experiment Stewie and I am glad it has worked out well. My limited experience with using Washita or Ark stones indicates that a fine lubricant is better, GT85 in my case, works better for me than the heavier lubes and keeps the stone pretty clean but then I am far more used to waterstones. It would have been interesting to repeat your SG measurements after the stone was cleaned and dried out but then removing all traces of oil contamination is probably impossible so the results would have remained inconclusive.

 

[swagman]

Thanks Essex; appreciate the feedback. Your right about some sic stones being oil free. They are generally in higher demand by the food preparation industry.

Stewie;

 

[swagman]

As mentioned previously, I have no intention of buying more honing stones. So that in itself will represent the end of my threads on nat stones. (you can breath easy now gents).

I still have a side hinge sharpening box to make for the Scotch Dalmore Blue. That's a few weeks away from completing, and will represent the last time I post a thread dedicated to making a sharpening stone box..

Stewie;

 

[ED65]

Then test your theory using Petroleum Jelly, and report back your findings.

You know this isn't my theory Stewie. And not to beat about the bush: it's not like you don't already know that treating a porous stone with Vaseline/petroleum jelly does work.

So I'm genuinely confused as to why you'd be casting doubt on it.

 

[D_W]

Resurfacing will keep it cutting, no need to worry about that. I have never favored water on oilstones, figuring that if you want them to cut fast, slurrying them with a coarse diamond hone will do that.

However, there are a lot of people on the razor boards who have sent me messages preferring water or glycerin or ballistol or something that is not oil-based, so I'm sure it's just a matter of opinion.

(I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)

 

[ED65]

(I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)

Thanks for that detail, I was going to ask if it was always the other way. I've read many times of the usual difference, and tried water on three or four stones and just as Stewie reported above the character of the cutting was noticeably grittier and it sounded much coarser too.

I was very surprised at how much difference there was on two finer ones as I was comparing to white spirit, not a proper oil.

 

[D_W]

(I do like that on the turkish oilstones, it seems to go in the opposite direction - someone had used the turk with water only for a while and it was like honing on glass and it put a bright mirror polish on everything. Put a little bit of oil or WD-40 on it, and then it starts releasing grit everywhere. Wipe it off and spray it with water again and it goes right back to really high polish with really slow cut speed.)

Thanks for that detail, I was going to ask if it was always the other way. I've read many times of the usual difference, and tried water on three or four stones and just as Stewie reported above the character of the cutting was noticeably grittier and it sounded much coarser too.

I was very surprised at how much difference there was on two finer ones as I was comparing to white spirit, not a proper oil.

I think a proper mineral oil would result in even slower cutting than white spirit. My oilstones that I've gotten new and tried with water have gotten "tired" much more quickly than they do with oil, but someone scuffing the surface on a regular basis wouldn't care about that. I like the feel of oil a little better and got the sense that I have a little bit more control over the level of the finish with oil. WD40 is common here in gallons, and it is what I use on oilstones, except those in a norton tri hone contraption.

I do like a mineral oil on coarse stones that need to have loose floating swarf, as well as on fine stones when honing a razor. I don't know if it makes any difference on the latter, but it gives the perception of more control.

 

[AJB Temple]

Interesting thread. Most of the stone performance opinions expressed here are somewhat subjective. It would be quite interesting to see a microscope shot of the honed edges.

 

[swagman]

I posted the following on another forum site;


Hi Kees; there's a common statement commonly referred too by users of honing stones; if you start using oil on a stone, you should continue using oil on that stone. There is relevance within that statement to the fact that, if you wanted to change over to water, you would 1st need to leech the stone of existing oil. But there is an opposite argument that can be put forth, that being, the stone may actually perform better with water.

I have heard arguments on the Razor Forum suggesting that Washita and Ark stones are OIL STONES. That in my opinion is a misleading statement. There are very few natural stones that you could categorise as a true Oil stone. I can only think of 1 from my own experience, and that would be some of the darker Hindostans. Due to their high properties within Iron Oxide, the use of water would turn the stones surface to a Rust Oxide, which is something most would likely want to avoid, as a measure to protect the integrity of the stone itself, and the tool being worked.

Now, returning to the discussion on Ark Stones. As you mentioned from your own experience, Arks are more than likely slow cutters, primarily as they fail to release any cutting slurry to assist to rate of cut. I don't have a great deal of experience with Arks or Wahita, but from my experience with other nat stones oil as a lubricant can be used to slow the rate of cut within any given nat stone due to the inherent viscous film it generates between the 2 surfaces being worked. This Ark stone that was the basis behind me started this thread, is a very slow cutting stone, unsuitable for my needs as a woodworker. I had 2 choices available, 1 was to put the stone aside and let it gather dust through lack of use, or 2, leech the stone of existing oil and trial it with water as the surface lubricant. As you have been following this thread, you would know that I went ahead with leaching the stone of oil, and tested this Ark with water. There was a notable improvement in the cutting performance of this stone, to the level that will see its further within fine honing my woodworking chisels and irons.

I have learnt a great deal from this journey, and hopefully by sharing that experience with other forum members, they will have gained a similar experience.

Appreciate your feedback Kees.

I was hoping for a bit more feedback from other forum members, but that's okay.

regards Stewie;