Rubbish Joinery

[El Barto]

Not me squire; am interested in and know clever design and construction when I see it, not to mention value for money!
A traditionalist old chap whittling/wittering/tut-tutting in a shed might not approve though :roll: :lol:

Hm nope not what I was getting at, I forgot how pedantic this place is. What I meant is that of the people I know who buy from Heals, Habitat et all, (who I imagine are fairly typical of the patrons of these kinds of stores) they probably aren't thinking about the clever construction methods employed and how x amount of material/waste was saved. I don't doubt that there's a fair amount of people such as yourself who DO take notice of that, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority haven't noticed/don't care.

I have nothing against any of these places, by the way; I own plenty of Ikea and Habitat furniture. What would be really cool is if they talked more about their construction process and engaged the customer in the ways they minimise waste. That would be interesting...

 

[Jacob]

......What would be really cool is if they talked more about their construction process and engaged the customer in the ways they minimise waste. That would be interesting...

I'd be interested to know how they do the made up timber stuff.
Presumably it's reduced small from green to get it dry as fast as poss and then machined up. Must save huge amount compared to solid wood e.g at one extreme - air dried occupying space for years whereas processed in and out in days.

 

[Benchwayze]

Looking at what I bought Jacob, it seems they buy usable off cuts, and joint them up. (In bulk of course.) They run it through wide sanders to thickness and then make up boards of suitable dimensions. (Just like kitchen worktops.) As woodworkers we would see it for what it is; but the layperson would just see it as 'the way it's made'; if they noticed it at all.

I think this is good recycling, and it is grain-matched pretty well. Even though it's not virgin timber, they can claim it is solid wood; because by definition it is. As I said earlier the furniture isn't class. But it's robust, and it looks okay (The 'Original Rustic ' range does at least!) It suits my purposes, for a bedroom makeover! And it's not like it has to last me for donkey's ears!

John

 

[Phil Pascoe]

As some wag said on the subject before - I expected my furniture to be made from pieces of prime oak, I just didn't expect it to be made from thousands of them. :lol:

 

[Benchwayze]

I did have 'prime' oak furniture. It was made in the 1940s, and was stamped with the 'utility' mark! It had a lot of plywood in it mind!
I got rid of the last piece about three years ago because it was wormed. The tops and door frames which were (OK )I kept in my scrap pile.

I do know what you mean Phil and I do like prime oak! But I used to buy that in rough sawn planks when I needed it! :wink:

John

 

[Sgian Dubh]

This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.

If it would've been sawn properly, that wouldn't happen. I don't know how you get "sawn properly" on a regular basis, though.

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there David. What do you mean by "sawn properly" because as there are relatively limited methods for converting saw logs, i.e., tangential or radial cutting resulting in the different classifications of the resultant grain patterns on the wide faces of the board, i.e., tangential, radial aka 1/4 sawn, rift sawn and figured.

I suspect you're really alluding to what happens to a board after it's sawn out of the log, i.e., how it's seasoned and for what purpose it's seasoned. For example, most softwoods (not all) go to the construction industry and are dried in a kiln to a joinery grade target moisture content, i.e., ~20% MC ±2%. Furniture grade wood (mostly hardwoods but some softwoods) have a target MC of ~11% ±2% here in Europe (7% MC in North America). I'm omitting discussion of air drying in this response for simplicity.

So, in many respects it's not a great surprise that stuff intentionally dried to 20% MC has a tendency to distort upon subsequent additional drying, particularly if the stuff is just sitting around in a pile rather fixed to something that will tend to hold it relatively true and straight, e.g., as part of a stud wall. In addition contributory factors for distortion may be natural growing stresses coupled with kiln induced drying stresses that can sometimes take a while to reveal themselves as they respond to changing environmental circumstances. Slainte.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I'd be interested to know how they do the made up timber stuff.
Presumably it's reduced small from green to get it dry as fast as poss and then machined up. Must save huge amount compared to solid wood e.g at one extreme - air dried occupying space for years whereas processed in and out in days.

We have some oak furniture, bought from a local "garden centre" before OFL was well known, but of a very similar sort. I asked about where it came from. Imported from the far east, bought by the mixed container load. Made from reclaimed wood, which originated from Europe. Our stuff is not made from quite such small pieces, but presumably as the demand has grown and reclaimed timber has got harder to source, the bits get smaller. Colour and grain matching is not great, but I'm willing to accept it as character of a sort. The furniture was off the shelf and a lot cheaper and quicker than making my own "handmade tut" instead :wink:

There was an episode of "How its Made" which showed the finger jointing of scraps of wood into long lengths, all automated from a hopper of bits, joined into a continuous length, fed past a saw to be cut to the required pieces. No human intervention to agonise over the best grain match, or placement of the finger joints.

 

[D_W]

This weather has played havoc the the equilibrium moisture content of all par pine/ spruce. Most of it is as twisted as a corkscrew.

If it would've been sawn properly, that wouldn't happen. I don't know how you get "sawn properly" on a regular basis, though.

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying there David. What do you mean by "sawn properly" because as there are relatively limited methods for converting saw logs, i.e., tangential or radial cutting resulting in the different classifications of the resultant grain patterns on the wide faces of the board, i.e., tangential, radial aka 1/4 sawn, rift sawn and figured.

I suspect you're really alluding to what happens to a board after it's sawn out of the log, i.e., how it's seasoned and for what purpose it's seasoned. For example, most softwoods (not all) go to the construction industry and are dried in a kiln to a joinery grade target moisture content, i.e., ~20% MC ±2%. Furniture grade wood (mostly hardwoods but some softwoods) have a target MC of ~11% ±2% here in Europe (7% MC in North America). I'm omitting discussion of air drying in this response for simplicity.

So, in many respects it's not a great surprise that stuff intentionally dried to 20% MC has a tendency to distort upon subsequent additional drying, particularly if the stuff is just sitting around in a pile rather fixed to something that will tend to hold it relatively true and straight, e.g., as part of a stud wall. In addition contributory factors for distortion may be natural growing stresses coupled with kiln induced drying stresses that can sometimes take a while to reveal themselves as they respond to changing environmental circumstances. Slainte.

It can be flatsawn or quartered, or fit, whatever you'd like, but the timber the boards is cut from can't be right on the stump, can't be full of tension and the sawing needs to be done with the pith centered (in two dimensions) relative to the cut itself.

That doesn't help the dryness issue you mention, and certainly wood sawn as I describe can still cup. But it shouldn't bow or twist much because it's sawn straight down the tree and shouldn't have any significant runout.

this is a bit of a pipe dream, especially for commodity grade stuff. However, in making planes, I saw two types of wood that have absolutely horrible behavior (american beech and apple that grows in the states) prove to be very stable over the years. But the beech, even if it's dead quartered, will have poor behavior if you cannot follow a straight line from one end to the other and not cross grain (i.e., if you see grain running diagonally but it looks quartered on the end, it will twist).

It's a pipe dream because the market appears not to care, and you cannot stipulate any such cutting and get maximum feet out of a log. Even if it's flatsawn, it'll be necessary to concede some lumber at the fat end of the log, and that will never happen.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

It can be flatsawn or quartered, or fit, whatever you'd like, but the timber the boards is cut from can't be right on the stump, can't be full of tension and the sawing needs to be done with the pith centered (in two dimensions) relative to the cut itself.

That doesn't help the dryness issue you mention, and certainly wood sawn as I describe can still cup. But it shouldn't bow or twist much because it's sawn straight down the tree and shouldn't have any significant runout.

this is a bit of a pipe dream, especially for commodity grade stuff.

I think you're right about the "pipe dream" aspect. Sawyers generally convert to maximise yield and there have to be compromises. Compromises are the result of a sawlog not generally being a cylinder but frequently more reminiscent of a somewhat deformed truncated cone, perhaps with what might be called an imperfect fustrum to match the rest of the imperfect geometrical form of a saw log. Frequently there are other lumps and bumps in a saw log to consider when the sawyer looks at it and tries to assess the best way to cut.

I guess that winning out a 'perfect' blank for planes might often best be achieved through riving or cleaving although many wood species don't rive easily, or at all successfully. But if it's achievable the splitting follows the longitudinal grain direction, whatever that may be, e.g., straight, spiralled, reversed, etc. Then reject all those blanks that show evidence of being something less than 'perfect', e.g., growth stresses, spiral grain, rippled grain, etc. After that, it would be a case of seasoning the resultant blank(s) and going through another culling session when the wood has dried to your target moisture content. Aside from that, I suspect you're correct that you can't easily employ someone to custom cut a log to your precise specifications unless you're willing to pay a hefty fee, and you just have to sort through whatever's available from your source. Or, do as you seem to be doing, sawing out your own blanks trying to get them as good as possible regarding grain orientation. Slainte.

 

[D_W]

I agree with everything you said (either paying the price for custom sawing from a good small sawyer, or finding a perfect log and riving it).

There was one seller in the US here selling 16/4 beech actually sawn properly. It was $16 per board foot, which was surprising at first, but nice to use.

I've been lucky enough to get one sawn log from a sawyer here who went out of business, and it made most of my kitchen cabinets. He thought the color was special, so he was very deliberate when he sawed it as I described (but has since retired), never found a buyer for it and sold it to me for cheap when he retired. the boards were, of course, irregularly shaped in order to follow the grain and there was some waste involved using it. It would never be commercially viable, but I'd pay 25% more for any joinery work anyone did in my house if they could arrive with wood like that.

Standards are probably worse in the US than they are in the UK, though we do have a very large number of local sawyers to go with the commercial mills. Some will do good work (just not construction lumber type prices) on their own and stock upcharge lumber, and others will do whatever you want on a per-hour basis. A hobbyist can make it work. I wonder what the upper middle market architectural timber looked like 175 years ago.

 

[doctor Bob]

Off topic, but a quick question to our American friend above. We seem to be getting a few TV programs about log built houses over in the USA, I mean rustic looking but proper big houses. All logs inside and wooden kitchens and just wooden everything, varnish / polished evrything.
As an Englishman I find this style horrific, very difficult TV to watch, do Americans aspire to this finish / type of house or is it just a certain area of USA.
I hope I'm not insulting, indeed you may well think my house terrible.

 

[D_W]

There aren't many houses like that here, but you see them place to place. More common to see large buildings made like that that are commercial (lodges or other such places up in the mountains). If you go to ski somewhere in aspen and end up in a lodge like that, it's just part of the theme more or less.

Fake log homes are also around, but the typical new home here is just stick and siding. They're cheaper to make, easier to insure, etc. When you get into higher dollars, then you'll see larger homes that are truly brick or stone, but none of those are going to be in the average home price range (plenty of older brick and stone homes, though).

I think that it's popular for TV producers in other countries to pretend that half of the US is rednecks, which means that at any given time you could conclude:
* half the people are in trailers
* half the people are in log homes
* half live in tin sheds

etc.

The reality of life in the states is that it's probably not that different than life in the UK. Maybe cheaper housing on average and slightly larger than the UK (more rooms, etc), but that varies a lot here, too.

No logs or rednecky homes in most places, and anywhere that you'll find them, they might be 1 of 500 structures in a given area.

I'm not offended by any of that, though. It's the magic of TV to do a poor job of portraying other countries - it's the mentality of a pro wrestling promoter - you draw views by exaggerating things.

I get a chuckle about all of the TV programs that show all americans as being fat, and you go to youtube comments and you'll find lots of english folks talking about "all you fat americans". (I see the july 2017 rate for obesity is 33.7% in the US and 28.1% in the UK). I saw a clip of a BBC program there that has fat people on it, and when they really want to "teach the fat UK person a lesson about what the future holds for them", they have them visit someone in the american south and imply that there's no truly obese people in the UK. The southern accent combined with obesity must really play well over there.

You go to an expensive area (truly expensive where, perhaps, the average home price is about $4MM - avalon new jersey comes to mind) and you won't see fat people. At that social status, I guess it's unacceptable and most of the folks are well kept. Certainly not a log home to be found anywhere there (but there is one at the edge of avalon made entirely of teak - and the build cost was a lot more than $4MM). I don't think you'll see that kind of thing on TV there, though, when they can find someone with deer antlers in their house somewhere in southern west virginia.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

* half the people are in trailers
* half the people are in log homes
* half live in tin sheds

Where do all the other halves of the people live?

 

[D_W]

Of course, that was on purpose. I could probably find 9 other things that "half" the people live in.

They're called yogiism's in the states here, where someone tells you something that doesn't add up.

there are some stereotypes that are true, though. There's WAY too many people driving big cars long distances with one person in them. In my opinion there are WAY too many people eating at restaurants 4 times a week and taking to vacations a year and then complaining about debt (we generally do less "holiday" than UK and continental europe, though - people spend more of their money on "stuff" and places to put it).

 

[johnnyb]

I love dw s post. It sums up junk tv to perfection. Although Mississippi and louisiana can be difficult to find decent snap! The local fast food joints are bordering on inedible for me. I do find Americans love to eat in slightly downhome mom and pops that have great home cooked food though. Po boys in Nola spring to mind. BBQ joints to. Luvverly.
I reckon American food is generally cheap and nasty. I'm thinking the 50 different hams at walmart. Also the nasty spreads claiming to be like butter in huge tubs.yuch!

 

[johnnyb]

Across the Pontchartrain bridge is the town of Mandeville a more middle class area you'd struggle to find. Nice restaurants beer halls joggers "historical" houses. Not many black people.some though.
My late father was slightly baffled by American racism as our small town was billeted by Americans during and after. Black and White were divided using pubs. Of course the locals were all white( even the colliers) but if a white gi decided to have a pint in the crown and cushion he was promptly arrested!
Baffling.( Even the mps were segregated)
Jb

 

[D_W]

I love dw s post. It sums up junk tv to perfection. Although Mississippi and louisiana can be difficult to find decent snap! The local fast food joints are bordering on inedible for me. I do find Americans love to eat in slightly downhome mom and pops that have great home cooked food though. Po boys in Nola spring to mind. BBQ joints to. Luvverly.
I reckon American food is generally cheap and nasty. I'm thinking the 50 different hams at walmart. Also the nasty spreads claiming to be like butter in huge tubs.yuch!

We've got the full range (of foods). You can have corn-based stuff at a dollar a pound for a lot of crap, or you can have (beyond) organic veggies and meat at $10 and $20 a pop.

A lot of us like mom and pop stuff (restaurants) because everything is a chain. LA and mississippi are sort of their own things. What you get there is regional, and you'll probably not find it in most other places. I learned the hard way that everything is fried in peanut oil, and if you don't eat a lot of peanut oil, you'll be up three hours after you go to bed wondering if you have food poisoning while you sit on the toilet. It took me *two* nights to figure that out.

Parts of the deep south can be unsafe (downtown baton rouge, Louisiana, and I'm sure parts of mississippi. It helps to know where it's not safe to go. If there was segregation in the military in WWII, it was probably because they couldn't separate the guys from the north and south (white guys). I'm glad that era is over ( to say in the least - in my opinion, they should've separated the southern whites from everyone else and made them sit by themselves). There's a lot more poo stirring about racism on TV than there actually is on the ground here - I guess the media isn't satisfied unless they're taking the low road. Too much reading of pro wrestling psychology (where the idea is to make people angry to get them to buy tickets, they're more likely to pay to see someone they hate getting beaten than to see someone they like beating someone up).

 

[doctor Bob]

I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.

 

[johnnyb]

The north south thing makes sense and would have pleased him to have a reason why the objections to white and black mixing was only applied to troops. The gis stayed till at least 1947 as they helped clear the snow into huge piles after that bad winter.

 

[D_W]

I believe you get Downton Abbey in America, we English gents all live like that.
When we talk about making stuff, of course we don't make it, one instructs the Butler to tell the footman to tell the peasants to make it.

I haven't seen downton abbey, but I quite like Doc Martin.

In the states, we figure that you're either royalty or soccer hooligans, with nothing in between.

And lots of boiled meat and pork pies.