Rounding off Plane Iron Corners

[Pabs]

Just interested to see who does this - it was a technique I saw on one of Paul Seller's videos where he preferentially ground the corners of his plane iron.
I'd picked up a second hand plane and the previous user had taken this a step further and ground off the corners entirely. I've read that this helps avoid plane track marks with bench planes.
Does everyone do this / some derivation thereof? Being relatively new to hand tool work I'm not sure how common this practice is
thanks

 

[Ttrees]

That fluff was doing the rounds before folks understood how to use a close set cap iron,
A good few folks suggested such nonsense like Schwarz doing this with a file also.

Not sure why your even asking, since you *actually* seem to have an understanding of how to
use the cap iron already.
That's judging from your recent pic, one familiar with such use of a plane will note the influenced shavings you've created.

• 

Perhaps you're just curious as to why someone would suggest anything else.
The reason is simple, ignorance is bliss for someone wishing to profit from nonsense,
and disregarding such use of the cap iron, lends itself to many avenues of income,
involving premium planes of all sorts, aftermarket cutting irons, fanciest of honing mediums,
or making things out to be difficult, impossible, or impractical... and directing folks elsewhere to subscription only content.

Lots of folks are still getting an income from this, and it will likely stay that way with the constant influx of newcomers.
'Tis a funny old world we live in.

All the best
Tom

 

[Jacob]

Rounding off the corners just means you get rounded-off tram-lines rather than square ones, and seems utterly pointless to me. I think it was put forward as solution to the basic jig problem which is that they can only produce dead straight edges.
Basically all plane blades, with one or two exceptions, should be cambered, so that a wide shaving will taper away to nothing either side.

 

[Adam W.]

Influenced shavings, what's that ?

 

[Ttrees]

Influenced shavings, what's that ?

Have you got Pabs on ignore?

 

[Adam W.]

Have you got Pabs on ignore?

Eh?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Influenced shavings, what's that ?

I'd like to know the answer to that myself. I seem to be seeing that description put out there more and more frequently over the last couple of years. I've always simply known plane shavings by their coarseness, i.e., fine and thick, and shavings in-between those extremes. But influenced? Not a clue. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Eh?

Pabs as well, now? What's that when it's at home? Adam, you and I are definitely out of the loop it seems. I must be an obsolete old woodworker lacking all 'influence', and now not even knowledge of what Pabs might be. Slainte.

 

[Ttrees]

Pretty easy to spot the difference, seeing as the shaving won't curl as readily, to not at all
depending on preference, i.e the results achieved.

Not to mention other obvious things present, like the shaving being waxy, crinkly and burnished in appearance.
Perhaps one might have other ideas as to how to achieve such brightness,
it ain't a rub of candle, nor any other wax.
It's not scraping either, should one be able to view @Pabs picture...
But perhaps yet still invisible for those whom choose to willingly have their head in the sand?

Tom

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Pretty easy to spot the difference, seeing as the shaving won't curl as readily, to not at all
depending on preference, i.e the results achieved.

Not to mention other obvious things present, like the shaving being waxy, crinkly and burnished in appearance.
Perhaps one might have other ideas as to how to achieve such brightness,
it ain't a rub of candle, nor any other wax.
It's not scraping either, should one be able to view @Pabs picture...
But perhaps yet still invisible for those whom choose to willingly have their head in the sand?

Tom

What are you talking about? The question is what does influenced shaving mean? The link to Pabs is uninformative it just being a link to a bunch of threads he/she has said something in. Could you please try and answer the question. Slainte.

 

[Ttrees]

What are you talking about? The question is what does influenced shaving mean? The link to Pabs is uninformative it just being a link to a bunch of threads he/she has said something in. Could you please try and answer the question. Slainte.

I thought Pabs clear photo would say it all really
But to answer your question of what does an influenced shaving mean?

It would mean that you're either not getting tearout, or very very little,
and likely have the understanding that the cap iron can be set closer for the job if need be,
or the distance kept the same, and a steeper angle honed on the cap iron either,
(should it be the case of say, that it's honed at less than 50 degrees)
The reason for such use is to completely eliminate tearout...
and yet still achieve the same thickness shaving, i.e still nothing whatsoever like scraping.

One would really need to be fooling themselves not to see the evidence of this in the photo.

All the best
Tom

 

[johnnyb]

???? heeeeeeeeelp meereeee

 

[Ttrees]

Perhaps G S Haydon can explain it in a less patronising tone.
I skimmed through the video, and didn't see a clear image of the torn grain,
but perhaps still yet less off putting than say David's videos, which ye won't likely watch.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I thought Pabs clear photo would say it all really
But to answer your question of what does an influenced shaving mean?

It would mean that you're either not getting tearout, or very very little,
and likely have the understanding that the cap iron can be set closer for the job if need be,
or the distance kept the same, and a steeper angle honed on the cap iron either,
(should it be the case of say, that it's honed at less than 50 degrees)
The reason for such use is to completely eliminate tearout...
and yet still achieve the same thickness shaving, i.e still nothing whatsoever like scraping.

One would really need to be fooling themselves not to see the evidence of this in the photo.

All the best
Tom

So what you're saying, basically, is that the old wisdom of setting the cap iron very close to the cutting edge of the sharp (obviously) blade reduces or eliminates tearout. Alternatively, or in conjunction with setting the cap iron close, and turning to another old trick, i.e., doing tuning work on the upper face and lower leading edge of the cap iron helps the shavings curl up, or whatever, out of the mouth. What you seem to be saying is those plane maintenance and tuning techniques are 'influence' because they create 'influenced' shavings.

I'm not sure I've fully understood you, but I think I've got the gist of it, so thanks. In essence, if a plane works effectively without causing tearout I've always thought of it as basically a well tuned and set up. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I'd say 90% of mine appear to be under the influence of drink. Need to get as much off as fast as possible however rough, until you get near to finishing - it's only the last few which need to be thin and without tear out.
No idea why it's called "influenced" - I think it's just guru speak for "I'm a clever ****"

 

[Ttrees]

So what you're saying, basically, is that the old wisdom of setting the cap iron very close to the cutting edge of the sharp (obviously) blade reduces or eliminates tearout. Alternatively, or in conjunction with setting the cap iron close, and turning to another old trick, i.e., doing tuning work on the upper face and lower leading edge of the cap iron helps the shavings curl up, or whatever, out of the mouth. What you seem to be saying is those plane maintenance and tuning techniques are 'influence' because they create 'influenced' shavings.

I'm not sure I've fully understood you, but I think I've got the gist of it. Thanks In essence, if a plane works effectively without causing tearout I've always thought of it as basically well tuned and set up. Slainte.

You've not looked close enough if you think of shavings curling up being the evidence,
as it's very much the opposite case,
and yes the closer the cap iron is, or indeed the steeper the leading edge of the cap iron is,
the more influence it will have.

The idea of having enough influence that it will work as it should, yet still as little as possible
for efficiently the work at hand.
To be experimenting with this without having a smoother or just another iron which you know won't tearout is a bit risky though.
Grand if you're allright with scraping flat surfaces until then though, as the tearout won't be so deep, (should it be set just a smidgen closer)

FWIW, the no.5 1/2's cap iron is honed at (a conservative) 50 degrees
and the distance set from the edge is just under 1/32" (set any further away than this, will render it in-effective)

Then the no.4 smoother to get rid of the last bit of tearout,
cap honed the same angle, but for this plane, the cap iron is about 1/64" away from the edge.

And has more infulence which produces straighter shavings,
the straighter the shaving the less chance of tearing out.

and going back to the question at hand...
Obvious enough that this would render it impossible to utilize the cap iron with clipped corners,
and as Jacob said, camber is needed, more precice than many might suggest, but I'm not suggesting starting a sharpening thread about that.

That practice of clipping the corners is the worst offender in the list of three sure ways to fail
attempting to utilize the cap iron.
Tight mouths are up there as likely the most frequent offender.
and not having honed the cap steep enough being the third reason,
and most likely the case of folks unwilling to "devalue" their premium hand planes by doing such a thing.

FYI Cosman might suggest the same advice, should one never have listened to him,
and seen straight shavings.
He's set up his plane to be intentionally elusive, as he sells the tools.
No surety can be had if doing such, as can be seen on his videos...
should one have enough determination or curiosity they would see this, i.e look up back bevels,
he's not shy of showing this, but has so many videos to obscure matters,
that it doesn't show up the shortcomings of his luring yet profitable plane setup.

Still, better than denouncing the use of such in its entirety, which seems to me, possibly to be impressive and unexpected tactical error playing that game, seeing as anyone and everyone has access to video production these days.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Have to say - I get curly shavings often and straighter ones sometimes, neither influenced by me, never gave it a thought. Too old to start worrying about it now!

 

[Adam W.]

All this just to flatten a bit of wood.

 

[Jacob]

Gurudom is a world of make believe. Take "back" bevels - a new term in itself, but something people have been doing, if necessary, from the year dot, without giving it a thought. And without a ruler!
I call it "the "without a ruler trick".

 

[Sgian Dubh]

You've not looked close enough if you think of shavings curling up being the evidence,
as it's very much the opposite case,
and yes the closer the cap iron is, or indeed the steeper the leading edge of the cap iron is,
the more influence it will have.

In truth, if I'm using a hand plane in preparation of a surface just before a bit of sanding prior to applying finish I'm not really interested in looking at shavings, curly, concertinaed, straight, or whatever. I'm really only interested in the wood's surface, e.g., is it torn out, is there evidence of nicks in the iron, etc. Early planing, e.g., getting wood to dimension, can be a bit hacky and torn out for all that it matters at that stage of making.

Ever since I came across this 'influence' nomenclature I've just never understood what it was meant to describe. It turns out it's just another name for a well tuned, set up and sharp plane working effectively, which is basically as I've understood things for a number of years. Slainte.