Request for advice - long fine furniture making course

[Ttrees]

Another source to seek for training might be on the Auzzie forum,
should it be the case of a tool requirement.
This could be expensive, as I've heard Cosman mention folks bringing unusable tools to his classes before, and commenting that it would take an age to get said tools working in a usable state.
And to complicate further, some tools might not even be available.

Not saying that all places will be like that, but seems to me like one might be better off getting the basics like tool prep outta the way and spend their money a bit more wisely on intermediate and professional skill training down the road a bit.

Basically saying if you've got the money to jet set off to get training, you sound like you don't have the time to build a bench, so maybe you might have to buy one instead.
Either way a bench is going to be first thing you will need, so it might be worth considering something like a Sjobergs professional job, (not the wee toy ones) or something solid like that.
Take note that you won't find too many ones chewed to bits, with chisel marks and saw cuts which tells a story.

Youtuber Matt Estlea might be one you could have a look at, he is a tutor now where he studied before at Rycotewood.
I think he mentioned a lot of stuff about his time there, which likely would be of interest.
He also used the place for building his bench, which might make more sense if you found something local.

Get the tools first is my way of thinking, or at least start collecting everything you will need now.
One could spend the cost on travel, accommodation and tutorage on the things needed
as it all adds up.
Should you not be in a position to be buying new saws, planes and all the rest
(if required)
Then have you seen the prices of off the shelf ready to go and possibly posh enough on paper tools
the likes of Lie-Nielsen, Clifton, or at least Quangsheng/Wood river/Bench dog and whoever else who makes knockoff Lie Nielsen/Veritas stuff that's guaranteed to be within spec, etc

Not saying all facilities would be the same, but some food for thought.

I'm likely making this all sound horribly expensive, and I'll bet a few folks watching
very much disagree, and have everything sorted for you already, no tools necessary, but worth noting just incase.

If not then there is always videos to buy which would be an inbetween,
if you can splash out for tutorage.
Not sure if they offer much more than whats out there on youtube though, take the likes of
the departed Phil Lowe's series shot by some organisation titled ...The art of woodworking.
There would hopefully be an index so you could get an idea on what you wish to learn.

One could do this all on the cheap by looking on the forums, buy good machinery, timber
and tools, without being hung up needing something if stuck.
and build a bench which would likely be as good as a course, or buy one and build something
which would do the same.

Just saying again I think a fine furniture course would be better off on specific subjects and not just getting the basics down.
I think Charlesworth does that kinda thing, aswell as the videos, which from Charlesworth from what I've seen on two videos are as good if not better than being there in person,
The precise instructions, attention to detail and honesty regarding the work is unmatched, and is strictly concerning the finest work one can do.

Sorry for the long winded post
Tom

 

[Spectric]

I'm likely making this all sound horribly expensive,

I think it will be as expensive as you want to make it, but if you buy right first time and remove the process of itteration that myself and others have taken then it will result in a more cost effective solution, buying cheap often means buying again. Are you saying that in a country the size of Australia there are no woodworking courses to join and you will need to travel half way round the planet or are you wanting a change of scenery as well ? If you found a course in the states or Canada then whilst there you could buy some of the tools available cheaper than we pay here for what is top quality, ie Jessem, Woodpecker, Incra etc.

 

[Ttrees]

I think it will be as expensive as you want to make it,

I most definitely agree with what Spectric has said here.
If you start searching now, (once you know what you're looking for)
you will save money, rather than having to pay up for top of the line tools as you wouldn't have the time to fettle them,
On a similar note in regards to machinery also, you could spend 5 times as much if you want it now.

There is a lot of stuff that might not be involved in a fine woodworking course, there are other subjects like safety which for some machines are course in itself,
The European's have stricter laws and thus safer, ie riving knifes and crown guards used in UK.
Dust extraction, and the logistics of the workshop, i.e possibly getting the sparky in to upgrade the supply.
But for the minute, I'm guessing the focus is on hand tools?
So here is a good thread which would be worth clicking.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/minimal-hand-tool-set.108502/#post-1181887
All the best
Tom

 

[David Young]

Hi David - what are you planning on covering in your short courses?

Cheers

Hello.
I'm looking to cover courses that would meet peoples/groups needs. Anything from basic hand tools, power tools, manufacturing of frames and carcases, veneering to complex machining. I would also look at specific projects if clients wanted to look at production methods for runs of items. Hope that answers your question.
Please contact direct for more help with your specific requirements.
I'm always happy to help with advice if I can. Regards D

 

[tibi]

Maybe this might be relevant as well
https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/training/apprenticeships/

 

[JohnPW]

I think all the tools should be provided on a course, and which are maintained by a technician. That means the teachers can concentrate on techniques using the same tools which are set up the same way and not worry about any students' potentially deficient tools.

I agree there's no substitute for a teacher watching and correcting your mistakes.

 

[TRITON]

Design/construction = 4 parts design to 1 part construction.

Whatever you want to make you are going to need exact dimensions of every single component. So you need to know what its going to be overall, and the idea you initially start with might not be the finished design totally.
Some might say its easy to keep it all in your head and work it through as you go, which I think is what people looking for a course are wanting the course to give them. They've seen things very nice and maybe selling for lots of money and want to recreate the same thing.

When I first started on a furniture design course, we were given 6-(3 pairs) short pieces of pine. 1 for a half lap joint, 1 for a mortice and tenon, and 1 for a half lapped dovetail, and that was all the instruction of actual working we were given.
You make a dovetail in rough pine, then it is up to you to teach yourself to make any dovetail joint, no matter pitch or size, and the same goes for every other joint.
The actual making is the easy part in my humble opinion, the hard part of it is coming up with eg a cabinet, in all its final dimensions, as well as its overall scale, its important features etc etc.

Design - This to my mind is not really the hardest part, but certainly the longest part of any design idea. You will start with a sketch, then a series of sketches, maybe working off a picture you've seen or is in your head and carry those sketches forward to the finished article. As in each and every part of it. You should marry up features you want prominent int he piece, but may have to discard as the overall takes shape. Legs on a table or other unit might start thick, or so proportioned might not suit and have to be reworked or even rethought, and this rethinking will affect the rest of the design, so best get it down on paper before committing to a final model.

 

[kmcleod]

Another source to seek for training might be on the Auzzie forum,
should it be the case of a tool requirement.
This could be expensive, as I've heard Cosman mention folks bringing unusable tools to his classes before, and commenting that it would take an age to get said tools working in a usable state.
And to complicate further, some tools might not even be available.

Not saying that all places will be like that, but seems to me like one might be better off getting the basics like tool prep outta the way and spend their money a bit more wisely on intermediate and professional skill training down the road a bit.

Basically saying if you've got the money to jet set off to get training, you sound like you don't have the time to build a bench, so maybe you might have to buy one instead.
Either way a bench is going to be first thing you will need, so it might be worth considering something like a Sjobergs professional job, (not the wee toy ones) or something solid like that.
Take note that you won't find too many ones chewed to bits, with chisel marks and saw cuts which tells a story.

Youtuber Matt Estlea might be one you could have a look at, he is a tutor now where he studied before at Rycotewood.
I think he mentioned a lot of stuff about his time there, which likely would be of interest.
He also used the place for building his bench, which might make more sense if you found something local.

Get the tools first is my way of thinking, or at least start collecting everything you will need now.
One could spend the cost on travel, accommodation and tutorage on the things needed
as it all adds up.
Should you not be in a position to be buying new saws, planes and all the rest
(if required)
Then have you seen the prices of off the shelf ready to go and possibly posh enough on paper tools
the likes of Lie-Nielsen, Clifton, or at least Quangsheng/Wood river/Bench dog and whoever else who makes knockoff Lie Nielsen/Veritas stuff that's guaranteed to be within spec, etc

Not saying all facilities would be the same, but some food for thought.

I'm likely making this all sound horribly expensive, and I'll bet a few folks watching
very much disagree, and have everything sorted for you already, no tools necessary, but worth noting just incase.

If not then there is always videos to buy which would be an inbetween,
if you can splash out for tutorage.
Not sure if they offer much more than whats out there on youtube though, take the likes of
the departed Phil Lowe's series shot by some organisation titled ...The art of woodworking.
There would hopefully be an index so you could get an idea on what you wish to learn.

One could do this all on the cheap by looking on the forums, buy good machinery, timber
and tools, without being hung up needing something if stuck.
and build a bench which would likely be as good as a course, or buy one and build something
which would do the same.

Just saying again I think a fine furniture course would be better off on specific subjects and not just getting the basics down.
I think Charlesworth does that kinda thing, aswell as the videos, which from Charlesworth from what I've seen on two videos are as good if not better than being there in person,
The precise instructions, attention to detail and honesty regarding the work is unmatched, and is strictly concerning the finest work one can do.

Sorry for the long winded post
Tom

Re Charlesworth courses versus videos - I've been lucky enough to take a few of David's courses and while the videos are great, actually being there and doing the course is far superior, IMHO, as its all the 'other' information you pick up during the course that jumps your quality of work forwards.

 

[Eldi76]

IMHO, If one would like to acquire good woodworking skills, it is essential to work/study under the supervision of an expert who is looking over your shoulder to examine what you are doing wrong and demonstrating techniques. I tried learning through YouTube but for me it just doesn’t work. Moreover, there is always a good chance that I will adopt wrong techniques, as there is no one to correct me on real time. These wrong techniques might become habits that will accompany me for a long time. For centuries, the best method of studying a skill or profession was as an apprentice coupled to an expert. Not only in woodworking or other crafts, but also in science and medicine - areas much closer to me.

I have started to build a Roubo-style workbench in a workshop without any guidance, I just had to pay the owner for the use of machines. I followed movies of The Wood Whisperer and in addition used Guido Henn's notes for building this workbench. Still, I found myself stuck at some point; For some reasons, I could not replicate exactly the technique used by the instructors, and there was no one to help with advice or alternative solution. Needless to say that I had very little hands on experience (although I watched many YouTube woodworking movies) and it was very frustrating.

With regards to hand tools – I have quite a few, some of very good quality. I will purchase more in the future, when I would truly need.

 

[Ttrees]

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying an old planing video of Charlesworth's which he had an audience
was a real help for me, and I haven't seen anything comparable to it since,
and I'm no slouch when I'm on the couch!

Others might disagree, but I think dimensioning stock is the biggest thing, and also first thing folks seem to struggle with, as it instantly shows up an inadequate setup, the workbench.
This is for concerning fine work, with good tolerances.

I did have a pretty flat bench to start with, and I made proper use of it after watching the video.
A simple bench bolted to the wall, leveled up construction timbers and old fenceposts,
A rigid door which I'm told is a solid core, as I was calling them composite fire doors, smooth, heavy and rigid, and a counter lying on top loosely screwed down over it, not too tight to deflect!
It makes planing self explanatory, and if you don't understand, get a dark crayon or graphite for small stuff and scribble on the bench.
The high spots are where you should be planing, simple.
Just incase someone is sweating it out, this will teach where to plane in minutes.
Step two, Charlesworth has some tips on the tube, angle poise lamp is the bees knees for sighting the work.

I'd either be looking to buy something (used and cared for if possible) like a Sjobergs elite, or getting someone or a facility to get a bench made up, be that a course or not, should one have no materials whatsoever to make something trustworthy.
It would make sense to inquire about this regarding a local course.

Have a look at Ben's skookum trestles/sawhorses and think of putting a suitable door, with some aprons if wanting something now, against a wall or something to stop lateral forces like planing.
The mid shelf looks good for putting a beam across, which would allow one to block/shim some timbers in the center to counter deflection if it were a problem.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/post-a-photo-of-the-last-thing-you-made.81798/page-285
That would be a good start, the work doesn't need be so difficult, just as long as you know who's worth their onions, as many folk are misleading.

A long reach angle poise lamp and a solid bench, don't hack it up with sawcuts or chisel marks
and see what you make of it, might be worth trying.

I think you would be off to a running start if you had that.
All the best
Tom

 

[MikeK]

Re Charlesworth courses versus videos - I've been lucky enough to take a few of David's courses and while the videos are great, actually being there and doing the course is far superior, IMHO, as its all the 'other' information you pick up during the course that jumps your quality of work forwards.

I was fortunate to be able to attend all four of @David C's one-week courses after I retired, with the last two courses in March 2020. I almost had an extended stay in England because the flights back to Germany were rapidly being cancelled.

Prior to David's courses, all of my recent education in fine woodworking was from books or the Internet. I learn better in a classroom environment with Sir observing and providing immediate correction when I appear to be straying. When I took the Tool Tuning and Dovetail courses, I was his only student and was one of two students for the Mortise and Tenon and Drawer Making courses. I have all of David's DVDs, and can highly recommend them. I might have been successful with just the videos, but the wood burner would have had more fuel in the process.

The final exam for the Tool Tuning course was to use the freshly refined tools on a rough piece of walnut and turn it into a nearly perfect piece of stock with specific dimensions. I am confident in saying I would not have been able to accomplish this on my own in the same time and with the same level of quality.

My first attempt at a dovetail joint on my own prior to the course was a total failure. My first dovetail joint in David's course was beyond my expectations (maybe his as well). The difference was the one-on-one instruction and immediate feedback. Equally important for me was the note taking, and even today I refer to my notes from each course.

In late 2019, I scheduled a 12-week woodworking course in Washington state that would start in the Fall of 2020. This was an expensive plan, with tuition, airfare, lodging, and local transportation, but I budgeted for it. Unfortunately, world events took care of that plan. I still plan on taking a similar course in the future.

 

[clara]

Hey, did you end up doing a course? And if so, which one did you do and how was it?

 

[Eldi76]

Hey, did you end up doing a course? And if so, which one did you do and how was it?

No, I haven't yet. There were some big changes in my life, I moved countries with my family so we are still adjusting. I will probably do a fine woodworking course in the future but not in a full time format but rather once-twice a week (for a year or more) and keeping my income source.

 

[Spectric]

Many things have changed since 2021 with some good teaching establishments no longer offering the long term courses but someone who might help is @MikeK who lives in Germany and I know has done some courses in the UK.

 

[robgul]

No, I haven't yet. There were some big changes in my life, I moved countries with my family so we are still adjusting. I will probably do a fine woodworking course in the future but not in a full time format but rather once-twice a week (for a year or more) and keeping my income source.

Scott Brown Carpentry on YouTube has just done a 2 week course at a place in Nelson, NZ (just across the trench from you!) - there are a couple of films posted in the last 3 weeks - it looked pretty good, making a dining chair with lots of techniques and skills. I think they do longer courses too.

If I didn't live so far away I'd leap at the idea of the course (and having been to Nelson it's probably one of the favourit places in the world where I would like to live!)

 

[MazvisK]

A long course is a very good idea. Having an experienced craftsman explaining, looking over your shoulder and correcting is a thousand times more valuable than all the Youtube videos in the world. It can not even be compared.
I have been looking at the same places myself. I have also done short courses several places. This is extremely useful, but maybe not practical when you are "down under". I did two weeks at Rowden while mr. Savage was still around and it is excellent in almost every way. It is hard to explain but I would not spend a year there.
Have you considered North America? I did two weeks at Inside passage near Vancouver, Canada. I would not hesitate to sign up for a year there, but they have a long waiting list. There is also a place called Center for Furniture Craftmanship in Maine which looks very good.

Hi Geir,

I know that this discussion happened a while back but hoping to still get a reply from you.
I am thinking on doing one year woodworking course at Rowden and was looking for some positive feedback on forums and so your comment that you liked two week course but would not do full year made me curious why is that. Could you expand on this please? Does it have anything to do with actual location or more the approach/quality of the course?

 

[Citracal]

Just my personal experience on courses offered in the UK. I would say take a close look at both the aesthetic and quality of the pieces of furniture that are produced by the students and the business. Has the school/business received any guild marks for their pieces? If so you can be sure their work is of the highest standard. Having considered several UK schools I settled with Waters and Acland, as it was clear as much effort was put into the design of pieces as well as the quality of their making. Marc Fish's school, also everything of the highest standard but my feeling was there was more exposure to a diverse array of methods as opposed to classic cabinetmaking, depends on what you want to learn. William's and Cleal also high standard of work but preferred what was produced by W&A. Chippendale, having been to the student show as well as having one of their graduates attend a practical job interview at my previous job, I can say their standards are much looser and design less rigorous.

 

[woodbloke52]

There's Peter Sefton, Chris Tribe....

Those two schools have since closed - Rob

 

[woodbloke52]

Just my personal experience on courses offered in the UK. I would say take a close look at both the aesthetic and quality of the pieces of furniture that are produced by the students and the business. Has the school/business received any guild marks for their pieces? If so you can be sure their work is of the highest standard. Having considered several UK schools I settled with Waters and Acland, as it was clear as much effort was put into the design of pieces as well as the quality of their making....

W&A in the Lake District is a great school providing you can find the workshop! When I visited some years ago there was some decent work being produced by the students but if you want to consider the very best school in the UK you can't go far wrong with the Barnsley 'shop - Rob

 

[Jacob]

Plenty of places doing courses and no doubt an interesting experience but I doubt many of their alumni end up making a living by selling furniture, least of all at the expensive designer furniture "high-end" of the line. It's a tiny little niche market, for the very well off.
If furniture design is your interest I'd look at a design course - it's the key to a good product, craft skills may be quite secondary and are relatively easily picked up.
https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/subjects/furniture-design-and-making