Replacement Plane Irons.

[ali27]

Hi,

Wasn't suggesting you did have Japanese blades, but logically, if a Samurai brand is blue paper steel and Trad Japanese irons have historically been made from this steel, it is axiomatic that you should be ably to sharpen your Samurai with the stones you have. It was the logical progression I was making, not assumptions on your blade arsenal.

I remember reading on a forum that only a few type of japanese natural stones
can sharpen blue steel. I don't know what traditionally japanese blades were made of,
I don't have the knowledge, but if what you say is true, then I guess my stones should
be able to sharpen the blue steel.

It is not possible for an abrasive to cut something that it is softer than, slurry or no, otherwise you could touch up tungsten carbide router bits on waterstones and you cannot. If a stone can abrade steel of Rc 66 on a Jap blade along with it's 50 somthing backing, it will also sharpen Rc 59-61 Western blades and Rc. 63 Quangsheng ones. It abslutely must.

Keith, you are absolutely correct. What I think is happening in my scenario is that
the binder in the hard jnat stones are very tough. I am not saying that the very hard
steel can be sharpened by a softer abrasive, I think the very hard steel is able to break
the binder so abrasive particles of the natural stone get free. The softer standard stanley
and slightly harder QS can't do this.

I'm not trying to be obstructive, you understand, but I'm trying to work out what is going on. It is a puzzle to me, too.

Are you sure that your western blades are not being sharpened? a slurry might take a long time to develop and is not actually essential to sharpening, just an indication of new abrasive particles being exposed. You did say your stones are quite hard.

The stone is not developing any mud and there is virtually no metal particles on the stone
even if I really press hard and continue for like 30 seconds, then I see a tiny evidence of something
happening.

I really don't know for sure if I am correct, but I think the binder in the hard natural stones
is too tough for stanley and qs blade. Making slurry with a diamond stone or slurry stone
does make the stone work, but I consider this an inferior way as the abrasive then rolls
around which makes it much slower and less precise

Mike.

Ali

 

[The Wood Butcher]

Sorry fellow, you're trying to square a circle. It doesn't really matter to the steel what you like to sharpen with, if what you have doesn't sharpen it. Start a slurry or get some appropriate sharpening medium for your tools and get on with it.

The simple fact is that the harder material will abrade the softer material every time.

For once I am in complete and full agreement with Jacob, even though I own most of the things he hates such as honing jigs...

 

[woodbrains]

Hi,

I don't think you are going to get a Stanley compatable blade with the characteristics that you want, even if this would do the trick, which I am beggining to doubt very strongly. To my knowledge, even the Japanese plane blades with Rc hardness of 66 are blacksmith made and hence very expensive. I think they will be more likely to be blue paper steel rather than white, too. Blades of this hardness have to be hammered and folded many times to give them any degree of toughness, even for relatively soft wood and you would probably need to commission a Japanese blacksmith to make you some to fit Western planes. I really think looking for a blade of a certain hardness and in a steel which does not contain certain alloys so limiting and probably futile, I would really consider just using artificial waterstones and all of a sudden your arsenal of blades will become useful. The technique of using them is identical, so I can't see any lack of enjoyment in using them.

There is another thing to consider; your stones are possibly gash. Natural Jap stones of the best kind are phenominally expensive, several thousand pounds, in fact. Unless you have invested heavily, it is highly possible that some rather poor quality stones are marketed under the banner of traditional and natural, when it is more likely a marketing ploy to offload poor quality stuff. I don't think sharpening stones should be so picky as to only sharpen Rc.66 but not Rc66 that has some tungsten in it. The sedimentary rock/clay, whatever the abrasive is distributed in should be soft enough to relase the cutting particles readily. This is the whole point of waterstones. If it is not doing that I can only conclude that you should keep your blades and ditch the stones for something that works.

Mike.

 

[ali27]

Should be in the buy/sell department, but since this topic
is hot at the moment I'll ask here. Anyone want to sell their samurai
replacement blade 50 or 60mm wide? Please pm me.
The thing is so expensive nowadays, was like 30 pounds max a few
years ago.

I was checking the Lie Nielsen site for their replacement blades. I could
not find any information on what hardness those blades. My guess would
be around HRC 62 for their high carbond blades. What about A2?
Anybody got more info?

Ali

 

[woodbrains]

Should be in the buy/sell department, but since this topic
is hot at the moment I'll ask here. Anyone want to sell their samurai
replacement blade 50 or 60mm wide? Please pm me.
The thing is so expensive nowadays, was like 30 pounds max a few
years ago.

I was checking the Lie Nielsen site for their replacement blades. I could
not find any information on what hardness those blades. My guess would
be around HRC 62 for their high carbond blades. What about A2?
Anybody got more info?

Ali

Hi,

LN A2 blades are Rc 60-62. it is stated somewhere on the plane blade testing link Bugbear tipped us off to. this is the sort of hardness to be expected for western planes. we require more toughness than hardness for the materials we work. Any harder and you need the lamination of Jap blades and the Samurai is the only one I know of and still a bit brittle for my liking.

I don't know if it is against the rules buying and selling in the general forum. Perhaps you should post in the WANTED section just in case your entry here is deleted.

mike.

 

[woodbloke]

Hi,

I think what you have got now is a bit of a Western/ far Eastern conflict going on. Japanese plane irons in traditional form for their traditional use were quite hard as it was a testament to the quality of the blacksmith who made the irons as to how hard they could be made. However, Japanese woodwork was done in the main with softwood and hardwoods similar to cedar, so high hardness to the expense of some toughness was OK. If you want to buy Japanese planes and chisels, then you can have the blades that will suit your criteria. However, I don't think these are really the best suited to Western needs, which is why I think you will struggle to find what is essentially a Japanese plane iron made in a Western format i.e. to fit Bailey pattern planes. It seems to me that you either have to go wholly down the road of Japanese tradition or get some synthetic waterstones to sharpen the more Westenised plane blades. I think Japanese woodworking could be fun.


Mike.

Without wishing to go too much off topic, you're right in saying that a lot of Japanese joinery was and is done in softer woods, but traditional Japanese furniture (e.g. tansu) were and are, made in hardwood. To say as well that Japanese planes and chisels are not suited to Western needs is nonsense...if you have a look at this site you'll see a vast array of blacksmith made plane blades and planes for different types of timber, including those for hardwood. Whilst I don't use Japanese planes, all my Japanese chisels were obtained from Workshop Heaven and are hardened to RC65 and I have no problems in obtaining a razor edge, which is one of the reasons I use them, having tried an array of Western chisels in the past.

Edit - looking at the site, there now appear to be replacement Japanese blades to fit Stanley & Record planes - Rob

 

[ali27]

Hi,

I think what you have got now is a bit of a Western/ far Eastern conflict going on. Japanese plane irons in traditional form for their traditional use were quite hard as it was a testament to the quality of the blacksmith who made the irons as to how hard they could be made. However, Japanese woodwork was done in the main with softwood and hardwoods similar to cedar, so high hardness to the expense of some toughness was OK. If you want to buy Japanese planes and chisels, then you can have the blades that will suit your criteria. However, I don't think these are really the best suited to Western needs, which is why I think you will struggle to find what is essentially a Japanese plane iron made in a Western format i.e. to fit Bailey pattern planes. It seems to me that you either have to go wholly down the road of Japanese tradition or get some synthetic waterstones to sharpen the more Westenised plane blades. I think Japanese woodworking could be fun.


Mike.

Without wishing to go too much off topic, you're right in saying that a lot of Japanese joinery was and is done in softer woods, but traditional Japanese furniture (e.g. tansu) were and are, made in hardwood. To say as well that Japanese planes and chisels are not suited to Western needs is nonsense...if you have a look at this site you'll see a vast array of blacksmith made plane blades and planes for different types of timber, including those for hardwood. Whilst I don't use Japanese planes, all my Japanese chisels were obtained from Workshop Heaven and are hardened to RC65 and I have no problems in obtaining a razor edge, which is one of the reasons I use them, having tried an array of Western chisels in the past.

Edit - looking at the site, there now appear to be replacement Japanese blades to fit Stanley & Record planes - Rob

Rob, those blades are from Tsunesaburo. Same blades that Axminster sells as
''Samurai laminated blade''.

Ali

 

[Jacob]

....

Without wishing to go too much off topic, you're right in saying that a lot of Japanese joinery was and is done in softer woods, but traditional Japanese furniture (e.g. tansu) were and are, made in hardwood. To say as well that Japanese planes and chisels are not suited to Western needs is nonsense...i.........

British joinery is mostly softwood too, with hardwood for luxury stuff.
The oak tradition is an invention (Morris et al) as it was highly in demand for structural use, boat building etc.

I've got a smoothcut blade and you can tell the difference when you are honing - the rounded bevel way at least - the hard edge feels hard and as you dip, the soft backing drags on the stone.
Doesn't seem radically different in use though.

 

[woodbrains]

Hi,

I think what you have got now is a bit of a Western/ far Eastern conflict going on. Japanese plane irons in traditional form for their traditional use were quite hard as it was a testament to the quality of the blacksmith who made the irons as to how hard they could be made. However, Japanese woodwork was done in the main with softwood and hardwoods similar to cedar, so high hardness to the expense of some toughness was OK. If you want to buy Japanese planes and chisels, then you can have the blades that will suit your criteria. However, I don't think these are really the best suited to Western needs, which is why I think you will struggle to find what is essentially a Japanese plane iron made in a Western format i.e. to fit Bailey pattern planes. It seems to me that you either have to go wholly down the road of Japanese tradition or get some synthetic waterstones to sharpen the more Westenised plane blades. I think Japanese woodworking could be fun.


Mike.

Without wishing to go too much off topic, you're right in saying that a lot of Japanese joinery was and is done in softer woods, but traditional Japanese furniture (e.g. tansu) were and are, made in hardwood. To say as well that Japanese planes and chisels are not suited to Western needs is nonsense...if you have a look at this site you'll see a vast array of blacksmith made plane blades and planes for different types of timber, including those for hardwood. Whilst I don't use Japanese planes, all my Japanese chisels were obtained from Workshop Heaven and are hardened to RC65 and I have no problems in obtaining a razor edge, which is one of the reasons I use them, having tried an array of Western chisels in the past.

Edit - looking at the site, there now appear to be replacement Japanese blades to fit Stanley & Record planes - Rob

Hi,

Without generalising too much, there was not as great a tradition in Japanese furniture as was with the Chinese and Koreans. The Tea Tansu was really the most notable thing and indeed some made of hardwoods. For the most part Japanese woodwork was in softer stuff, so the demands on planes etc was different to Westen cabinetmaking tools. It was and is possible to have Japanese blacksmiths make blades and saws for hardwoods, but this is expensive.

i don't doubt you can sharpen your Japanese chisels to razor edges, the stones we use are designed to do so. the difference is, the bulk of those chisels is soft steel to reinforce the hard edge, as we know. Such a hard edge without the lamination, put to the use of a Western cabinetmakers tool, is likely to be too brittle. It is not by chance that the tools we use are hardened and tempered to Rc 59-62 ish. it is from a long tradition of what has worked best for us. To get a harder blade, it would have to be laminated like the Samurai brand that has been mentioned. My only concern was, it is very unlikely that there are others available to fit stanley pattern planes. It is unfortunate, but if a certain brand of stones will only sharpen a certain hardness of steel and no/few blades are made to this hardness in the pattern that is required, it is logical to replace the stones and use the irons that are available. It will be a fruitless and frustrating task otherwise. I have heard an expression, 'there are 2 types of waterstone, the ones you can afford and the ones you cannot'. The latter being the natural variety, the former artificial. I do have to remark that all indications are that, the natural stones we have been taking about are not of good, usable quality. I'm not trying to be obstructive, I really wish I thought different, but sometimes it is best to cut losses and invest in different tools that work for the conditions that we find ourselves.

Mike.

 

[woodbloke]

i don't doubt you can sharpen your Japanese chisels to razor edges, the stones we use are designed to do so. the difference is, the bulk of those chisels is soft steel to reinforce the hard edge, as we know. Such a hard edge without the lamination, put to the use of a Western cabinetmakers tool, is likely to be too brittle.

Mike.

Agreed, the edges are brittle, which is why they need to be used with a much greater degree of care than Western style chisels. Thus far, I've not had any damage to an edge and that's using them on Oak and harder timbers. What does help enormously is to hone them with a single bevel to give more support to the hard steel edge...my bench chisel that get severely thumped :shock: with a geno have a single bevel at 30deg and those used exclusively for hand work (i.e. paring and dovetails) have a single bevel at 25deg. Another forum member, Derek Cohen (Derek of Oz) is also a huge fan of Japanese chisels and the Aussie timbers that he uses then on a just a mite harder than the normal run of the mill stuff we have in the UK. I also don't use waterstones but use instead the 3M films from WH - Rob

 

[Jacob]

........... What does help enormously is to hone them with a single bevel to give more support to the hard steel edge........

True for all planes/chisel. A compromise being the convex bevel - as found often on Jap chisels.
Worst of all is hollow ground with a thin honed bevel at the edge. Quick though - but lazy!

 

[jorgoz]

True for all planes/chisel. A compromise being the convex bevel - as found often on Jap chisels.
Worst of all is hollow ground with a thin honed bevel at the edge. Quick though - but lazy!

Where did you get this from ? :roll: In rule, japanese chisels are never convex sharpened the way you sharpen, but as flat as can be, apart from carving chisels that is.

Sometimes when a new japanese plane blade is used and it is on the harsh side, the edge is ever so slightly feathered by drawing it back on the fininshing stone a couple of times to temper the harshness/brittleness of the steel/bevel. This stops however when the the blade is 'tamed' and then again they revert to a perfectly flat bevel.

Sorry for the serious off topic drifting of the OP question.

 

[Jacob]

True for all planes/chisel. A compromise being the convex bevel - as found often on Jap chisels.
...

Where did you get this from ? :roll: ..........

1 seen em (actually in an antique tool museum display). not saying they are all convex, just that it's not unknown.
2 it's been posted up several times - usually along the lines of "look what somebody has done to this old jap chisel, tut, tut" but in fact probably done by an old jap
3 others have reported seeing jap demos with chisels with convex bevels
4 there is absolutely no earthly reason why they shouldn't be convex - if that's how the sharpener chooses to sharpen, and common sense tends to find a way. And it's easier.
5 if, as you say, it works for carving chisels, it'll work for any chisel or plane blade. Aren't all chisels "carving" chisels? What else do you do with them, poke the fire?

It's one of the weirder features of woodwork that so many little gurus keep popping up saying "this is the correct, one true way that things are done, etc", completely ignoring that others are doing it quite successfully in different ways.
Scepticism is good for you. More people need to try it.

....In rule, japanese chisels are never convex sharpened the way you sharpen, but as flat as can be, apart from carving chisels that is.....

Where did you get that from, and why would they draw the distinction?

 

[jorgoz]

Sceptisism is a definite plus, never take any one's word for it, 's why i reacted to your statement.

That it would work for carving chisels is a kind of logic for me, though my logic might be un-logic to others, as you might have experienced. Try carving a concave shape with a straight beveled chisel. For a large concave shape it might just work, but the smaller the concavity gets the more you would benifit from convexity in the bevel, i think.

A tool museum is not really a place to see tools in their proper working condition, should be, but mostly i think they aren't. And when it comes to Japanese tools, to little info circulating in Europe. The amount of Japanese literature about them is astounding if you see how little is available in English, German, French or another language.

It might have been posted on forums, but in total those mentions would be only a very small fraction of japanese chisels/planes/tools circulating on this globe.

Who's giving those demo's ?

I always like to learn new skills/insights to improve my woodworking. That you are a strong believer in the convex bevel is good for you, it works for you, but don't force your views upon others, it's not for everybody. Not saying you do, but that's how it comes to me.

 

[Jacob]

Yes flat bevel not good for curved carving, but not vice versa - curved bevel perfectly OK for any normal chisel op. given a good edge at the usual 30º or whatever.

The demo was at one of the shows - Brian and others told me about the chisels.

That you are a strong believer in the convex bevel

"strong believer" is over stating it somewhat. I just observe that it works OK

but don't force your views upon others,

More a case of defending myself vigorously against forceful opposition

it's not for everybody......

Why not? It used to be.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I don't think Jacob is suggesting that the back of a bench chisel should be anything other than flat. He's just referring to whatever shape the bevelled surface might have.

I don't think the shape of the bevelled face matters very much, as long as there's enough metal to support the cutting edge. More metal, more support. A convex bevel leaves more metal in place than a hollow-grind one, so might offer more support to the cutting edge under demanding use. For very fine hand paring without mallet use, finer bevel angles offer less resistance to cut, and need less metal supporting the edge because they don't have to deal with shock loads. You couldn't chop a mortice with that arrangement, though.

 

[jorgoz]

More a case of defending myself vigorously against forceful opposition

The harder you shout the more resistance you'll get. Just do what you do best and who wants to learn from you will ask.

it's not for everybody......Why not? It used to be.

Well, as you said yourself, there is not only 1 'correct' way of doing things.

 

[GazPal]

The convex bevel helps support the back/rear of the chisel's harder leading edge and also absorbs shock during use. Use of the convex bevel is a traditional sharpening method which allows the laminated steel and iron blade to flex as a unit whilst preventing the harder steel from shattering.

 

[jorgoz]

That convexity is so small compared to a flat bevel it probably makes very little difference strenght wise, imho.

 

[GazPal]

That convexity is so small compared to a flat bevel it probably makes very little difference strenght wise, imho.

Japanese blade smiths and blade polishers (Sharpeners) tend toward a preference for convex bevels. They're pretty sure convexity aids edge strength in high stress blades. Every little extra support helps.