Replacement Plane Irons.

[Paul Chapman]

LN No 4 with its crappy A2 blade that just crumbles if you wave it in front of timber.

What angle are you honing the blade, Mark? A lot of people find that A2 blades crumble if honed at 30 degrees or less. You could try honing at a slightly steeper angle.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mtr1]

30 ish, I will try with a steeper angle tomorrow Paul, 38? Or higher?

 

[Paul Chapman]

30 ish, I will try with a steeper angle tomorrow Paul, 38? Or higher?

I only have one LN plane (the #9) and hone that at about 35 degrees and it seems OK.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

...
Never tried one of the two piece cap irons, they must be good if Jacob likes them, are they really that good?

Nah they are total carp basically. TBH I'm just fishing for freebies - samples for "review" etc. I've only ever had one - a little tin of "Honerite Gold Haemorrhoid Fluid", and that was carp too! I ended up sharpening chisels with it. Mind you they were all free of piles at the end of the day.
Everybody else gets them why not me? :roll:

 

[woodbrains]

LN No 4 with its crappy A2 blade that just crumbles if you wave it in front of timber.

What angle are you honing the blade, Mark? A lot of people find that A2 blades crumble if honed at 30 degrees or less. You could try honing at a slightly steeper angle.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hi,

Does fly in the face of the notion that A2 is tougher than carbon steel. Perhaps this is why there has been a wholesale introduction of all Veritas and LN lines in O1 steel more recently. I have heard that David Savage recommends LN planes as the best but advises people swap out the original blades to Cliftons :shock:

Mike.

 

[Paul Chapman]

LN No 4 with its crappy A2 blade that just crumbles if you wave it in front of timber.

What angle are you honing the blade, Mark? A lot of people find that A2 blades crumble if honed at 30 degrees or less. You could try honing at a slightly steeper angle.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hi,

Does fly in the face of the notion that A2 is tougher than carbon steel. Perhaps this is why there has been a wholesale introduction of all Veritas and LN lines in O1 steel more recently. I have heard that David Savage recommends LN planes as the best but advises people swap out the original blades to Cliftons :shock:

Mike.

This point about the angle to hone a blade made from A2 is even recognised on the LN website when discussing their A2 and 01 plane blades http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1490 They make the point that A2 should be honed at 30 degrees or higher but 01 can be honed at 25 degrees or lower.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Around about 30-35deg is fine for A2, anything less than that and the edge will crumble, as the sole of my block plane will testify - Rob

 

[ali27]

Guys I want to sharpen my plane blades on natural stones and have
experienced that some steels just don't work on natural stones.

I think I need an iron that has a very high hardness, (66HRC) and it should only
be white steel which means not containing tungsten, chromium. These are
too tough for the natural abrasive.

Anybody know where I can buy a white steel plane iron, preferably laminated,
high hardness as a replacement blade for my stanley? The samurai blades have a high
hardness laminated steel, but it's blue steel, don't think my natural stone would work for that.

Thanks.

Ali

 

[woodbrains]

Guys I want to sharpen my plane blades on natural stones and have
experienced that some steels just don't work on natural stones.

I think I need an iron that has a very high hardness, (66HRC) and it should only
be white steel which means not containing tungsten, chromium. These are
too tough for the natural abrasive.

Anybody know where I can buy a white steel plane iron, preferably laminated,
high hardness as a replacement blade for my stanley? The samurai blades have a high
hardness laminated steel, but it's blue steel, don't think my natural stone would work for that.

Thanks.

Ali

Hi,

Why do you think you need high hardness? Toughness (which is quite hard to quantify) is the most desirable property we need. You can have a very hard blade that brakes down when the edge is put under pressure, so in effect is less useful than its hardness may suggest. This is the reason why the A2 blades mentioned above are not as resilliant as they might be until the honing angle is increased. Carbon steel might only be about Rc 60 but will be sharper and quicker to hone when needed, so you are more likely to do it and hence the blade will perform better. The Quiansheng blades are harder, maybe Rc63 64, but I think T10 steel does contain some tungsten.You should still be able to sharpen them on your stones, though.

When you say natural stones, you do not say whether they are oil or waterstones. I'm assuming oil stones. Still should not be a problem, though it will take longer. Don't forget, many stock plane irons have a little tungsten in them and some vanadium too, but are designed to be sharpenable with the usual stones available to woodworkers. Things like D2 and other HSS reqire ceramic or diamond stones.

I had a Japanese laminated blade that I used to sharpen on oilstones before I converted to water. They sharpened just fine. It begs the question, are you using a progression of grits to sharpen? A fine stone which is needed for the final polish will cut too slowly to be seen to do anything if you are using that to hone a dull blade. I used to use a medium, then fine India and then put a fine polish on with some Welsh mica slate or a hard Arkansas. First two not natural, obviously, but an indication of the grit sizes needed to go from a used dull to razor sharp. i don't know what stones you are using, but I suspect you are starting too fine.

Mike.

 

[Alf]

Ali, forgive me, but that sounds a little arse-backwards. Surely you get the tool for the job (in this case, the tool steel), then tailor the sharpening to the tool, not vice versa? :|

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Ali27 - about the only grades of toolsteel that will give you Rc66 are the very high carbon ones, 1.2 - 1.4%C. They'll give Rc68-69, but only when hardened 'right out' under ideal conditions - held in a furnace at carefully controole hardening temperature to soak right through, and quenched fast in something like 10% brine solution. Old files used to be made from such steel, and they may be your best be if you want something that hard. First anneal your old file by heating to about the colour of cooked carrots, then allow to cool VERY slowly. File to shape, then harden as described.

However, as woodbrains has explained above, it's likely to be far too brittle at that hardness to keep an edge for any length of time. Tempering back will help a bit (boiling in water for half an hour or so would give you about Rc65 or so), but tempering to a point where the steel will be usefully tough will drop hardness to about Rc62 or thereabouts.

Another steel readily available is 'Silver Steel', which is 1.1%C, with just a bit of chromium in it to stabilise the structure when hardening. Hardened right out and left untempered (or boiled in water as above) will give Rc65-66 under ideal conditions. You can buy Silver Steel in most good engineers' merchants, but usually only as round bar.

Why do you need a plane iron that hard anyway?

 

[Jacob]

I think ali needs to do a bit more woodwork and a bit less tool fiddling.
Ali - don't worry about these stones which don't seem to work, stick with the ones which do. You will "grow" into the other ones eventually.

 

[ali27]

Guys for me it is all hobby. I find working with natural water stones(japanese,
chinese) far more fun than using synthetic waterstones.

The reason I want high hardness plane blade is because my standard stanley
and qiansheng plane blade don't sharpen at all on my hard natural waterstones.
They can't get the any amount of slurry out of the natural stones. It feels like
absolutely nothing is happening, no swarf nothing. The plane irons glide over
these stones without any polishing.

I don't feel that the qiansheng blade is much harder than the regular stanley iron to be honest.

I use 1000 grit and 4000 grit before the final polishing stone. The edge is already
very sharp at this stage and the 8000 grit gives an ever sharper edge. Sometimes I skip
the 4000 and create a tiny microbevel 5 degrees higher. So this is not a problem.

The problem with the hard natural waterstone is that its hardness does not allow
for the regular plane blades to get slurry out of it. Now I could just create slurry by rubbing
a diamond stone on the natural stone for a few seconds or using a slurry stone,but
I don't like it that way. I want plane irons that can get the slurry out of the stone. And
even then the natural abrasive particles can't really sharpen/polish the tougher steels, which
is why I want a white steel plane blade.

It's just a hobby thing, I don't do serious woodworking.

Thanks.

Ali

 

[ali27]

I think ali needs to do a bit more woodwork and a bit less tool fiddling.
Ali - don't worry about these stones which don't seem to work, stick with the ones which do. You will "grow" into the other ones eventually.

Jacob, for me it's all hobby.

Ali

 

[Jacob]

Ali what is this "slurry" thing? I've never hankered after "slurry" in all my life as a woodworker. Am I missing something? I doubt it somehow. :roll:

 

[ali27]

Ali27 - about the only grades of toolsteel that will give you Rc66 are the very high carbon ones, 1.2 - 1.4%C. They'll give Rc68-69, but only when hardened 'right out' under ideal conditions - held in a furnace at carefully controole hardening temperature to soak right through, and quenched fast in something like 10% brine solution. Old files used to be made from such steel, and they may be your best be if you want something that hard. First anneal your old file by heating to about the colour of cooked carrots, then allow to cool VERY slowly. File to shape, then harden as described.

However, as woodbrains has explained above, it's likely to be far too brittle at that hardness to keep an edge for any length of time. Tempering back will help a bit (boiling in water for half an hour or so would give you about Rc65 or so), but tempering to a point where the steel will be usefully tough will drop hardness to about Rc62 or thereabouts.

Another steel readily available is 'Silver Steel', which is 1.1%C, with just a bit of chromium in it to stabilise the structure when hardening. Hardened right out and left untempered (or boiled in water as above) will give Rc65-66 under ideal conditions. You can buy Silver Steel in most good engineers' merchants, but usually only as round bar.

Why do you need a plane iron that hard anyway?

Thanks for your reply.

I love to use japanese natural stones, but my plane irons don't sharpen well
on them. That is why I am looking for plane blades that work well on the hard
natural stones.

Thanks for the details, but I personally can't do those things, would not be
able to do it righ and too afraid anyway!

Brent Beach tested the laminated samurai blade(blue steel) which has a hardness of 66-68HRC
and his conclusion was:

Pro Reasonably priced blade with very good performance.
Wears like high carbon steel (no chip outs, high quality edge throughout sharp to dull
cycle), but almost as durable as most A2 steel blades.
Con Nothing really. The best performer in the group of high carbon steel blades.

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/TSUtest.html

Unfortunately this steel is blue steel number 1. This is what is in that steel:

carbon 1.3 to 1.4
chromium 0.28 to 0.3
Tungsten 2.0 to 2.2

Now I am no expert at all, far from it. I just do know that my japanese natural
waterstones don't sharpen my stanley and qiansheng blades well. The reason
I am looking for a high hardness white steel plane iron is because it is
al carbon without chromium and tungsten, which makes it easy to sharpen and the
high hardness will get slurry out of the hard japanese natural waterstones.

Now it might be possible that the chromium and tungsten in the
laminated samurai plane blade is no problem if one uses synthetic
stones in the beginning and finishes on the japanese natural stone. First
doing 1000 and then 4000 grit synthetic and finish on the japanese natural
stones. Perhaps this way it might work.

Ali

 

[ali27]

Ali what is this "slurry" thing? I've never hankered after "slurry" in all my life as a woodworker. Am I missing something? I doubt it somehow. :roll:

Jacob, not sure if I am using the right word, but basically I want the stone to produce
a tiny bit of mud. With my natural stones this doesn't happen when I sharpen the standard
stanley and the QS plane blade on them. So I then use a small stone and rub it on the
natural stone to get some mud, slurry.

Ali

 

[woodbrains]

Hi,

Sorry I assumed you were using oilstones, it was the most likely guess from you initial info. Jacob uses oilstones, that is why he doesn't understand about creating a sluury.

I think what you have got now is a bit of a Western/ far Eastern conflict going on. Japanese plane irons in traditional form for their traditional use were quite hard as it was a testament to the quality of the blacksmith who made the irons as to how hard they could be made. However, Japanese woodwork was done in the main with softwood and hardwoods similar to cedar, so high hardness to the expense of some toughness was OK. If you want to buy Japanese planes and chisels, then you can have the blades that will suit your criteria. However, I don't think these are really the best suited to Western needs, which is why I think you will struggle to find what is essentially a Japanese plane iron made in a Western format i.e. to fit Bailey pattern planes. It seems to me that you either have to go wholly down the road of Japanese tradition or get some synthetic waterstones to sharpen the more Westenised plane blades. I think Japanese woodworking could be fun.

There is one puzzle I have though; White paper and blue paper steels are not new and could be sharpened by Japanese craftsmen using traditional stones, so I'm wondering why you are having trouble? Are your stones actually any good (just asking, don't want to sound condecending here, you understand) Could the use of a Nagura stone help create a slurry? Are you soaking the stones long enough? Do you actually need the slurry to be so evident? The blades may well be getting sharp without the slurry. If you can get them sharp, then dont worry too much.

The other thing that puzzles me is this; Japanese blades have more soft steel in them in the form of the back than the actual hard cutting edge. This has to be abraded by the stones too. I think there is something wrong with the assumption that you could only remove metal if it is hard.

Mike.

 

[ali27]

Hi,

Sorry I assumed you were using oilstones, it was the most likely guess from you initial info. Jacob uses oilstones, that is why he doesn't understand about creating a sluury.

I think what you have got now is a bit of a Western/ far Eastern conflict going on. Japanese plane irons in traditional form for their traditional use were quite hard as it was a testament to the quality of the blacksmith who made the irons as to how hard they could be made. However, Japanese woodwork was done in the main with softwood and hardwoods similar to cedar, so high hardness to the expense of some toughness was OK. If you want to buy Japanese planes and chisels, then you can have the blades that will suit your criteria. However, I don't think these are really the best suited to Western needs, which is why I think you will struggle to find what is essentially a Japanese plane iron made in a Western format i.e. to fit Bailey pattern planes. It seems to me that you either have to go wholly down the road of Japanese tradition or get some synthetic waterstones to sharpen the more Westenised plane blades. I think Japanese woodworking could be fun.
At this moment I am not interested in buying japanese planes. I really like bailey and bedrock
plane, very easy to use. You are correct in the Eastern Western conflict I am afraid.

There is one puzzle I have though; White paper and blue paper steels are not new and could be sharpened by Japanese craftsmen using traditional stones, so I'm wondering why you are having trouble? Are your stones actually any good (just asking, don't want to sound condecending here, you understand) Could the use of a Nagura stone help create a slurry? Are you soaking the stones long enough? Do you actually need the slurry to be so evident? The blades may well be getting sharp without the slurry. If you can get them sharp, then dont worry too much.
Mike, I don't have white or blue steel plane blades and never have. The plane irons which
I have and don't work on the jap. naturals are standard stanley blades and qiansheng plane iron.
This is exactly the reason I am interested in buying a white steel, high hardness, plane iron as it
should be the perfect iron to sharpen on japanese natural stones.

The other thing that puzzles me is this; Japanese blades have more soft steel in them in the form of the back than the actual hard cutting edge. This has to be abraded by the stones too. I think there is something wrong with the assumption that you could only remove metal if it is hard.
Just to make clear again, I have never used japanese plane blades. I think the problem
is that the stone will work for very soft steel or very hard steel, which sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it works, but I am guessing very soft steel(like the back of a laminated blade)
is much softer than the hard jap natural stone and therefore gets abraded quickly whereas a plane
iron from stanley or QS has a hardness close to that of the natural stone, so no real abrading
happens, just gliding. Andparadoxically the really hard plane iron will get sharpened on the
stone because it's so hard that it will release the slurry out of the natural stone.

Mike.

Answers in bold.

Ali

 

[woodbrains]

Hi,

Wasn't suggesting you did have Japanese blades, but logically, if a Samurai brand is blue paper steel and Trad Japanese irons have historically been made from this steel, it is axiomatic that you should be ably to sharpen your Samurai with the stones you have. It was the logical progression I was making, not assumptions on your blade arsenal.

It is not possible for an abrasive to cut something that it is softer than, slurry or no, otherwise you could touch up tungsten carbide router bits on waterstones and you cannot. If a stone can abrade steel of Rc 66 on a Jap blade along with it's 50 somthing backing, it will also sharpen Rc 59-61 Western blades and Rc. 63 Quangsheng ones. It abslutely must.

I'm not trying to be obstructive, you understand, but I'm trying to work out what is going on. It is a puzzle to me, too.

Are you sure that your western blades are not being sharpened? a slurry might take a long time to develop and is not actually essential to sharpening, just an indication of new abrasive particles being exposed. You did say your stones are quite hard.

Mike.