repair to antique top (narrow set of drawers)

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Col

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Hi,
Looking for some advice on best way to finish a repair please.

The top had a 3mm shrinkage crack along an old glue joint. I've managed to dismantle and reglue the joint but now need to finish it. The top has a layer of veneer which had a jagged edge when the joint below separated. In some places the veneer has gone back together well, but in others there are small gaps where small pieces have broken off over the years. I will also need to lightly sand the broken top edges of the veneer to get a smooth finish across the join.

What's the best way to fill the gaps please? After light sanding, how would I try to match the finish/colour of the rest of the top?

topglued.jpg

worst length of joint ...
closeup.jpg


Thanks, Colin
 

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It might be a bit late to say this, but if you just go back in time to when you had it apart, you could plane the two edges so they meet... Otherwise it's filler time - Brummer stopping or sawdust from the job mixed with liquid hide glue.
 
Andy - as you say too late ... but if i had done that the overall length of this top section to would have reduced. It actually sits on a lower section which the top section overhangs at the front and sides - due to the shrinkage it is starting to look disproportionate at the front (probably only noticible because I know its there!), but another 2-3mm would really spoil the proportions!
thanks anyway ... Colin

AndyT":hyxq5dsj said:
It might be a bit late to say this, but if you just go back in time to when you had it apart, you could plane the two edges so they meet... Otherwise it's filler time - Brummer stopping or sawdust from the job mixed with liquid hide glue.
 
top looks quite light (sun bleached) so if you sand to any extent you will end up with a darker strip aside of the crack which looks awful. If this item is not one of a pair, I would look to sand the whole top and depending on how the colour of the sanded top looks compared to the rest of it, then polish it or bleach it if too dark, prior to polish. Bleach needed is A and B bleach really - a bit tricky for DIY! If the crack has no step and is 100% flat then dont sand at all. Filling the defects would be using wax stopper or 2 pack filler but the latter needs levelling usually sanding. If using filler, run masking tape either side of the crack or the filler will go into the grain pores same with likes of brummer or glue and dust. Wax stopping can be applied part way through the polishing app. Such a simple little job but such a pain at the same time!
 
How about using brown shellac to fill? A shellac filler stick, melted into the crack, levelled back with a razor blade. If you curve the blade with your thumbs as you push it, you can limit the scraping to a very controlled area. Then brown shellac polish on top, blending in to the surrounding finish. Polish to blend in after a week or so (I use T-Cut on musical instruments).
 
Matt - thanks for the tips. Tried scraping the top edges of a small area of veneer either side of the crack and it doesn't appear to darken. Had never heard of A+B bleaching so looked it up and it's probably not something I want to get into! Currently playing around on some scraps with colouring two part filler to see if i can get a mix that's close enough to be a base ... Colin

Matt@":3cxtftqv said:
top looks quite light (sun bleached) so if you sand to any extent you will end up with a darker strip aside of the crack which looks awful. If this item is not one of a pair, I would look to sand the whole top and depending on how the colour of the sanded top looks compared to the rest of it, then polish it or bleach it if too dark, prior to polish. Bleach needed is A and B bleach really - a bit tricky for DIY! If the crack has no step and is 100% flat then dont sand at all. Filling the defects would be using wax stopper or 2 pack filler but the latter needs levelling usually sanding. If using filler, run masking tape either side of the crack or the filler will go into the grain pores same with likes of brummer or glue and dust. Wax stopping can be applied part way through the polishing app. Such a simple little job but such a pain at the same time!
 
Chris - curved razor blade as a scraper sounds good for minimising the damage - probably going to try a two part filler for the gap (since I have some!). Thanks ... Colin

profchris":21sj0vzg said:
How about using brown shellac to fill? A shellac filler stick, melted into the crack, levelled back with a razor blade. If you curve the blade with your thumbs as you push it, you can limit the scraping to a very controlled area. Then brown shellac polish on top, blending in to the surrounding finish. Polish to blend in after a week or so (I use T-Cut on musical instruments).
 
Don't try to put a permanent curve in the blade. Just hold it like a cabinet scraper, fingers at side and thumbs in the middle, and flex it as you push. Single sided blade as it's stiffer. You can use a double sided blade with tape on one edge, but they're very bendy and hard to control, and go blunt very quickly.

Two minutes practice on scrap will show you the effects of different amounts of flex.
 
re. filler - crucial to mask up along the crack edges as best you can or the filler as well as going into the crack goes into the pores of the grain surrounding the crack and you end up with flecks of filler in the pores. Remove tape carefully straight after filler applied whilst still soft, pulling tape away from edge of crack not into it :)
 
Getting a professional result on that is quite a big job. You'd have to follow individual grain lines along the grain and across the crack, colouring them all separately. Shellac sticks or hard wax sticks would be the best option.

Just slapping some vaguely dark brown filler in the crack won't disguise things and IMO will make it look worse, instead of respectable evidence of age you'll have a highly visible, bodged repair. Even more important is the fact that the original failure was because the joint couldn't cope with the swelling and shrinking due to seasonal changes in humidity, unless you address that no repair will be permanent.

My advice, leave it alone.
 
Hi Custard,
There is a bit more history to the problem - it was originally a 3mm crack along the old joint - for how the project started see here : advice-restoring-antique-top-of-small-set-of-drawers-t103552.html

I think I have identified both what caused the original weakness in the joint, and then a later attempted repair which prevented the short front section of the upper layer of the top floating on it's lower frame. This fixing of the front section and moving into a drier environment then caused the 3mm gap. I have fixed the gap and it's main cause - the short front section will now float with any shrinkage/expansion of the rest of the top.
It is filled now and I agree that it is very amateur, but I have managed to disguise it with some staining as well. In a few days i'll cut back the shellac, wax it and post a picture.
The fix is obvious to anyone who knows their stuff but I think it's less obvious than a crack to a casual observer (tested on some friends). The set of drawers has actually seen a lot of fixes over it's life (some more obvious than mine), and could do with even more tlc. Spent this afternoon rebuilding the collapsed supports for it's ceramic casters (only two of which were the same make and so three different levels involved).

Despite all this the piece of furniture still looked great which is why I wanted to try my hand at antique restoration - this is for myself not for a 'client'.

However, my experience of using a filler, then trying to mask it, fully supports your advice that it wasn't the right way to go. I was lucky that the veneer had cracked in a jagged line and I was able to butt it back together at some points along the crack lessening the impact of the filler. If there is a next time I will use multi-coloured shellac sticks as you suggest!

Thanks, Colin

custard":3cowsj0u said:
Getting a professional result on that is quite a big job. You'd have to follow individual grain lines along the grain and across the crack, colouring them all separately. Shellac sticks or hard wax sticks would be the best option.

Just slapping some vaguely dark brown filler in the crack won't disguise things and IMO will make it look worse, instead of respectable evidence of age you'll have a highly visible, bodged repair. Even more important is the fact that the original failure was because the joint couldn't cope with the swelling and shrinking due to seasonal changes in humidity, unless you address that no repair will be permanent.

My advice, leave it alone.
 
its perfectly possible to gain an adequate repair using the methods I described (as described). A repair using wax and shellac stick ends up with a crack filled with wax instead of filler. If the crack is then "coloured" to look like grain its easier to do on filler than wax for obvious reasons. If one is replicating grain patterns, flecks and pores using wax stopper/ shellac stick alone then thats a better job - is this what was being referred to by Custard? . A shrinkage crack is a shrinkage crack and a proper repair should always be to close up the crack by whatever means as long as what is done does not affect the integrity of the item. The right way to repair this was to close up the crack and if necessary add a strip to the rear edge if there is no overhang to allow for the closing up. The one thing that screws up this type of job is both sides of the crack not being 100% level. In the end , one has to take a view regarding whether to leave as is or do something invasive and the value/ rarity of the item is usually what dictates that........
 
Matt - the top consisted of a short front section of mahogany laminated to a much larger rear section (single piece) the laminated pair finished with a layer of veneer. The laminate joint breaking underneath the veneer had caused a jagged crack in the veneer but a clean breakage of the joint in the mahogany. Once the old glue was cleaned off, I had a 'good as new' rejoin of the mahogany (no gap). The trouble was that over the years, as the gap had enlarged, little bits of the veneer edge had broken off - these small, non-continuous gaps in the veneer was what I needed to fill, colour matching the existing top.
Although I'd tested various coloured mixes of filler on scrap (sanded, oiled, ...) and selected what I thought was a close match, the thinness of the fill somehow made it much lighter when in place. The other problem thrown in, was that in some places the two joined edges of the veneer were not quite level so some scraping was needed to bring them back into alignment. Then I had to play around to hide the filler and the scraping - the filler took colour in a different way to the scrapped veneer. So my experiences would lead me to shellac fill (for such small cracks in veneer) if I wanted a more predictable end result.

On the other hand , to fully close the cracks in the veneer, I would have had to planed each edge at least 3mm to give me straight edge of veneer on both sides. Then, as you say I would have had to add at least 6mm to the back edge of the top, in matching veneer on mahogany and with matching contoured edges - this was beyond my skills and would have left a more noticeable repair that I now have.

The item is not particularly rare/valuable (or good condition) - so I was prepared to use it as my first venture into restoration techniques - It's already given me lots of lessons and there are still more repairs that it needs (small area of missing veneer on a drawer front, cracked and scuffed veneer on the curved base, a very poor repair to the side ...)

Colin


Matt@":amtybw95 said:
its perfectly possible to gain an adequate repair using the methods I described (as described). A repair using wax and shellac stick ends up with a crack filled with wax instead of filler. If the crack is then "coloured" to look like grain its easier to do on filler than wax for obvious reasons. If one is replicating grain patterns, flecks and pores using wax stopper/ shellac stick alone then thats a better job - is this what was being referred to by Custard? . A shrinkage crack is a shrinkage crack and a proper repair should always be to close up the crack by whatever means as long as what is done does not affect the integrity of the item. The right way to repair this was to close up the crack and if necessary add a strip to the rear edge if there is no overhang to allow for the closing up. The one thing that screws up this type of job is both sides of the crack not being 100% level. In the end , one has to take a view regarding whether to leave as is or do something invasive and the value/ rarity of the item is usually what dictates that........
 
I thought i'd post a photo of the finished result.
For a first attempt at restoration it's OKish. Not really pleased with the appearance (looks quite good in poor light!). However, I am happy with the finger test - cannot feel that there is a repair so that's something :)

topdone.jpg


How it got there: experimented with two part filler mixes to get the right colour, however when the filler was in the thin crack it appeared much lighter than than my test mixes. Then tried to stain the filler, but unsurprisingly the edges of the scraped wood either side of the filler took the stain very differently. Then decided to add a 'colour wave' along the grain to hide the stained edges of the wood around the crack. Ended up too strong. Several lessons learned and may do something with the whole top at a later date if I ever wanted to remove the ink stain as well. For now might just leave that end in the sun and hope it fades a bit.

Colin
 

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That could have gone so much worse!

Next time, if there ever is one, you might think about reversibility if using something which is experimental for you. Shellac can be dissolved away in meths, wood dust and hide glue can be removed with warm water, etc. Planning for reversibility is standard in lutherie, and I can't say how many times I've had to undo my work and redo it differently :)
 
That turned out better than I feared, you should be well pleased with that result!

Antique furniture has fallen in value so much that restoration is an affordable (and very satisfying) pastime. Good luck with your next project!
 
is the dark streak the filler or the sanding? did you stain? any sanded area will pick the stain up more, making it darker or in sanding you will cut through the thin bleached surface and make it darker in that area. Its crucial critical when doing this type of repair to get the levels adjoining the crack 100% level - you must get these surfaces dead level by whatever means. Sanding must be an absolute last resort and if done better to do the whole surface to get consistency of colour.....did I say dont sand lol :wink:
 
Matt - No sanding - just scraping to remove the ripple of the crack which also took off some areas of the original finish either side of the crack since the veneer edges had raised slightly (not enough to see but enough to feel). One of my goals was an 'unfeelable' repair line. As you say, that scraped area then picked up the stain more strongly and the repair was then going downhill fast :-( The dark wave is then my attempt to mask earlier failings (it is bigger than the fill or the scraped area).

Colin

Matt@":389itkou said:
is the dark streak the filler or the sanding? did you stain? any sanded area will pick the stain up more, making it darker or in sanding you will cut through the thin bleached surface and make it darker in that area. Its crucial critical when doing this type of repair to get the levels adjoining the crack 100% level - you must get these surfaces dead level by whatever means. Sanding must be an absolute last resort and if done better to do the whole surface to get consistency of colour.....did I say dont sand lol :wink:
 

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