Renovate natural sharpening stones?

[D_W]

Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.

Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

They were sold to tradesmen here. I doubt there was much hand tool use in the United States by the time jobs were available.

 

[Racers]

Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.

Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

What a sad state of affairs that anybody should be ridiculed for being different, its just bullying and its time it stopped.

Pete

 

[adrspach]

I will try to answer your original questions.
Can you flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue easily and on the budget? Yes
How easily? Depends how deep is the dishing. I have done fair bit of both of those stones and use sanding belt glued on slab grit about 60. To take out This dishing takes me about 10-15 minutes and then lap it up on w/d paper to decent level under water another 10 minutes each.
As a cost wise cheapest is to do it on a concrete paving slab in your back yard. Just be aware that while you doing this it will also polish that slab and make it different from those others which the one to be obeyed does not need to like.
Cost of the other methods such as sand paper or diamond plates depends on how much you pay for them. You can get a piece of offcut worktop in the skip of you local kitchen maker for free. Your elbow grease you need to price yourself. Good lock with it and I hope you can get nice pattern on that DB stone.

 

[bugbear]

Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.

Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

Although IIRC as soon as you got out of the training workshop and worked professionally, you used a jig...

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....
Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

Although IIRC as soon as you got out of the training workshop and worked professionally, you used a jig...

BugBear

Tried to. Simple naivety. A lot of people were lead down this route and sharpening was made difficult and expensive. I believed the BS and did both but half heartedly.
Eventually I got back to basics and sharpening became quick and easy once again! Never used a jig since!
NB it's the jig which brings about the need for flat stones and all the extra work entailed. Jigs don't work on uneven stones. Hence the rise in the modern flattening obsession.

 

[Jacob]

I will try to answer your original questions.
Can you flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue easily and on the budget? Yes....

Do you need to flatten the slate and Dalmore Blue? No.

 

[Trafalgar]

I highly recommend using both sides of a stone, most of which you will find have a side with a swale and another that's flat (used stones, that is). Both are handy to have. Don't flatten the side with the swale. Turn it over to see what the other side looks like. :shock:

You can thank me later. :wink:

If you're using less than both broad sides and the two long edges you are not getting your money's worth.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.

I have flattened (to remove nasty gouges) an old slate stone, which is dead easy as slate is soft enough to sand with SiC paper. An India oilstone - not much made any impression. One of those carborundum sticks sold by Axminster for grinding wheel dressing just about made an impression with perseverance. I concluded that either using it as is, or buying a new one made more sense.

 

[Bod]

Jigs didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later, with the burgeoning amateur woodwork supply industry.

Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

Planecraft 1959 page 58.
Record Edge Tool Honer No. 161.

Bod

 

[AndyT]

Do we really need to go over this yet again? ](*,)

Jacob wrote that jigs "didn't come in big time until the 1980s and later" so a single reference, of whatever date, doesn't decide the issue. Unless we can agree on a statistically robust definition of "big time" (not very likely) and also come up with comparative year by year figures for the production and usage of jigs through the period in question (not very likely either) what he wrote is an assertion which is not going to be proved or disproved, however many pages we add to this thread, and however far we wander from the OP's question!

Shall we just let the question of jigs alone? Or start a new thread?

 

[Jacob]

....
Flat out plain and simple wrong. Evidence available.

BugBear

What evidence? In fact they were around but hardly anybody used them. We learned trad sharpening at school and again later when I did a course. Gadgets were for the amateurs and beginners. You'd be laughed out of the training workshop if you got out a little jig!

Planecraft 1959 page 58.
Record Edge Tool Honer No. 161.

Bod

They were around much earlier than that but they were not widely used. Just a gadget for the amateurs. Victorians were big on gadgets. Old antique honing jigs are extremely rare - they weren't sold in huge quantities, in fact hardly at all. Compare old planes, old saws, marking gauges, chisels - all extremely common and very cheap.

Carry on using your gadgets by all means, don't let me put you off! But we should resist the attempts to justify this by amateurs and hack journalists re-writing the history of the craft

 

[swagman]

I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.

I have flattened (to remove nasty gouges) an old slate stone, which is dead easy as slate is soft enough to sand with SiC paper. An India oilstone - not much made any impression. One of those carborundum sticks sold by Axminster for grinding wheel dressing just about made an impression with perseverance. I concluded that either using it as is, or buying a new one made more sense.

Tony; your just not trying hard enough. Norton Carborundum and India Oilstones, all flattened using loose sic powder on float glass.

 

[Trafalgar]

If a stone has one flat side that's all you need. Don't ruin it by flattening the side with the swale for one day you just might figure out how to use that side. The valley and section of curves created by the hills and valley can all be used. You can use it by sharpening sideways, forward, diagonally, all sorts of ways depending on what you're sharpening. Often, the shape of the cutting tool is more important than the absolute fine-ness of the edge.

If the stone's original owner had wanted to keep both sides flat, he would have done so. If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.

Think about what you're looking at before you go and ruin it.

 

[lurker]

7 to 1 at the moment, I would flatten as well so 8 to 1.

Pete

I see the point Jacob makes, it most likely is a waste of time.
however I like mine flat so I'll sit on the fence

I have a paving slab (just outside my workshop door) that I have done this on.
I clean them with paraffin and a scrubbing brush

 

[MikeG.]

.........If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.......

Erm.......... then how come the oilstone I bought new 30 years ago has a swale? It was flat when I started.

 

[whiskywill]

Shall we just let the question of jigs alone? Or start a new thread?

I really like Jigs, and Reels, and Polkas, and Mazurkas but mostly I like Rants. :wink:

 

[Trafalgar]

.........If it has a swale, it was by definition used by a professional craftsman, or a series of professional craftsmen. You cannot produce this by using it every other weekend.......

Erm.......... then how come the oilstone I bought new 30 years ago has a swale? It was flat when I started.

I guess because you've used it for 30 years. It's cause for rejoicing. =D> You have one side with all sorts of options and then a flat side. Nothing not to love. If you ever want to get rid of it, or view it as somehow 'defective,' please give me a shout. I had one that was getting just about right and it split almost dead in half in a drop to a concrete floor.

 

[ED65]

You can find all sorts of bad advice even in old books!

Aaand stepping seamlessly from "this wasn't done historically" to "it's bad advice".

(nearly all old stones you find will be hollow)

And nearly all old planes don't have their cap irons fettled properly. Doesn't mean either indicates good practice.

But we know it wasn't widely done ... and we know it isn't necessary; anybody sharpening freehand will not need to flatten stones - it's only for jig users.

Who's this 'we' you're referring to paleface?

I don't own a sharpening jig of this type. I've never owned one. And I most definitely have need of flat stones. Horses for courses Jacob (as usual ad infinitum).

I do wonder how someone would go about doing this with stones that had any sort of significant dishing:

But maybe that's just me ;-)

 

[ED65]

I have a bit of a question; I've heard the recommendation to flatten oilstones on a concrete paving slab / coping stone / ... before. I have even tried it. Aside from a small number of nasty scratches, it did not do any sort of useful flattening. Those who recommend it - do you mean to interpose some sort of abrasive grit, and if so, what ? Pardon me if I am being a bit thick.

The process most definitely goes more slowly the tougher the stone is!

 

[ED65]

I had one that was getting just about right and it split almost dead in half in a drop to a concrete floor.

Also not a cause for ceremonial burial in the trashcan. Broken stones can be stuck back together again and apparently you can't tell after it's been done. By which I mean you can't feel it in use, you can see the crack (sometimes).