Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices

[NickN]

So is the face cheek the long side and the edge cheek the short side of the actual tenon, with the face and edge shoulders being the parts of the full size rail which end up surrounding the mortise when the joint is assembled? As per:

From comments above I'm guessing it's something different?

As I'm about to cut my first tenon I'd like to get the terminology correct #-o

 

[MikeG.]

Those advocating cheek-first are cutting rather than chiseling tenon cheeks. It is impossible to do it that way around with a chisel. This is one situation where framing will vary from joinery (ie where the process doesn't just scale up), because you can't take a lump of 6x6 to a bandsaw. Nonetheless, I do it shoulder's first when furniture making. Frankly, I doubt order is very important unless there is a moulding involved. If you have shoulders all round, then it doesn't really matter if you cut any (or all) of them too deep. However, it matters enormously if you cut the cheeks too deep, so I prefer having a cut to stop to when cutting the cheeks, which is why I personally cut the shoulders first.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

The drawing is labelled incorrectly. The stock width (SW) and stock thickness (ST) have been switched for some unknown reason, and yet on the tenoned member the stock width is labelled correctly, i.e., RW.

The shoulder at the top of the rail doesn't visually correspond with the distance between the top end of the mortice and the cut-off point indicated by the grey line where the horn is to be removed after joint assembly.

All in all, not the best drawing and guidance for setting out a mortice and tenon I've ever seen. Slainte.

 

[AndyT]

I don't think "stock" is right either. If the horizontal part is (correctly) labelled as a rail, its vertical counterpart would normally be referred to as a stile.

 

[Jacob]

Doesn't show face and edge marks either - even if the M&T are central they are still referenced from face and edge.
And cheek "face" is a new one! Cheeky face!
This was probably a woodworker not sure what he was about, having his drawing drawn and annotated by someone who knew even less, printed by someone who knew absolutely nothing.
It does happen - my wife edited craft books, including contributions to some well known ones (Collins etc) and she knows FA about woodwork. She'd be reliant on getting information from reliable (?) sources and getting it checked - but she'd never know for sure. This was before she met me! :lol:
Talking of misinformation - the fret/coping saw DT waste removal idea, should be scrubbed from the record, along with the 1/6, 1/8 gradient.

 

[StraightOffTheArk]

Came across this advert in the 1959 volume of The Woodworker which specifically mentions the face - although it also still feels it necessary to clarify what they meant, for those, presumably, who didn't have the benefit of Mr Ford's experience.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Talking of misinformation - the fret/coping saw DT waste removal idea, should be scrubbed from the record, along with the 1/6, 1/8 gradient.

But but but HAYWOOD man!

 

[Jacob]

Talking of misinformation - the fret/coping saw DT waste removal idea, should be scrubbed from the record, along with the 1/6, 1/8 gradient.

But but but HAYWOOD man!

Well yes it's OK for beginners but it's so much quicker with an extra saw cut or two and a chisel. You have to clean up with a chisel anyway, so it's one tool less. Speed IS important - it gives you more time to spend on things which matter more.
Similarly the familiar 25/30º grind/hone advice is excellent for beginners but with experience and confidence you'd move away from this - most likely to a freehand convex bevel - the edge still about 30º. And so on.
Happy Christmas!

 

[NickN]

Despite the controversy, threads like this contain a lot of useful info, plus they're good for a laugh occasionally...

Merry Christmas all.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Just somthing to help people to remember the different parts of the joint and where they go.
"If you put your head down a rabbit hole your cheeks will touch the sides but your shoulders will stop you falling in"

When I set the gauge for mortice and tenons I always stick a piece of masking tape on the gauge and that says to me this gauge is set do not move it. Any gauge that is set like that stays set till the job is finished. I actually have about 10 gauges.

As for the use of a coping saw to cut out the waist on a dove tail as a very young apprentice I had to chop mine out but the men never did they would use a coping saw and then parr to the base line. Like most things in life there is not just one way of doing a thing but several and they are all correct. Its just whats best for you and the job, not allways the same thing.

 

[D_W]

Talking of misinformation - the fret/coping saw DT waste removal idea, should be scrubbed from the record, along with the 1/6, 1/8 gradient.

But but but HAYWOOD man!

Well yes it's OK for beginners but it's so much quicker with an extra saw cut or two and a chisel. You have to clean up with a chisel anyway, so it's one tool less. Speed IS important - it gives you more time to spend on things which matter more.
Similarly the familiar 25/30º grind/hone advice is excellent for beginners but with experience and confidence you'd move away from this - most likely to a freehand convex bevel - the edge still about 30º. And so on.
Happy Christmas!

A fast coping saw is at least as fast as what you're talking about.

Also, grinding at one bevel and finish honing secondary is faster than grinding an entire convex bevel, unless a user has no touch or sense. It's less work, there's no way around it and also generally results in a better edge on average.

 

[bugbear]

Well yes it's OK for beginners but it's so much quicker with an extra saw cut or two and a chisel. You have to clean up with a chisel anyway, so it's one tool less. Speed IS important - it gives you more time to spend on things which matter more.
Similarly the familiar 25/30º grind/hone advice is excellent for beginners but with experience and confidence you'd move away from this - most likely to a freehand convex bevel - the edge still about 30º. And so on.
Happy Christmas!

A fast coping saw is at least as fast as what you're talking about.

Also, grinding at one bevel and finish honing secondary is faster than grinding an entire convex bevel, unless a user has no touch or sense. It's less work, there's no way around it and also generally results in a better edge on average.

Merry Christmas, everybody!

BugBear

 

[Chip shop]

Well yes it's OK for beginners but it's so much quicker with an extra saw cut or two and a chisel. You have to clean up with a chisel anyway, so it's one tool less. Speed IS important - it gives you more time to spend on things which matter more.
Similarly the familiar 25/30º grind/hone advice is excellent for beginners but with experience and confidence you'd move away from this - most likely to a freehand convex bevel - the edge still about 30º. And so on.
Happy Christmas!

A fast coping saw is at least as fast as what you're talking about.

Also, grinding at one bevel and finish honing secondary is faster than grinding an entire convex bevel, unless a user has no touch or sense. It's less work, there's no way around it and also generally results in a better edge on average.

Merry Christmas, everybody!

BugBear

A very merry Christmas to all.

Edit: even if you don't use a sharpening method I don't approve of

 

[MarkDennehy]

Well.
Had to give it a go, didn't I?

Bit of a fiddly mortice (three-sixteenths instead of a quarter-inch, but Reasons), but I found it a lot more controllable than my footprint firmers and the aldi bevel-edged ones. Plus the sharpening is fast with that convex bevel, you just don't worry too much about keeping the angle constant and away you go..

 

[Tasky]

Do what you like - I use a morticing machine myself.

Presumably Mister Ford taught you to do this, then?

But if you want to know how to use a trad mortice chisel then it could be useful to refer back to the days when the tradition was strong.

I really don't care, to be honest.
I'm after whatever works, preferably without having to drop thousands of pounds each time on each single technique through trying different tool variants and training courses with century-old teachers who probably took many shortcuts in order to meet deadlines in their trade. I don't have any deadlines to work to, here - I am making something and it will be finished whenever it's finished. If someone advocates one thing over another simply because it's what they used back in 1728 when life expectancy was half my own current age, or because it saves me a whole 2 minutes compared to what some shed guru does just as well, then it's not of much use... and those two minutes saved are probably negated by me taking a stretch break, having a smoke (well, vape nowadays), making some tea, etc etc...

Jacob - don't start that thread! NOBODY needs to cut mortices in brussels sprouts. Not even at Christmas.

You're clearly not a chef, then... Mortise the base of each sprout and inlay with a bacon tenon. Cook, then plate up by standing each one upright on a large drop of sprout puree.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - don't start that thread! NOBODY needs to cut mortices in brussels sprouts. Not even at Christmas.

You're clearly not a chef, then... Mortise the base of each sprout and inlay with a bacon tenon. Cook, then plate up by standing each one upright on a large drop of sprout puree.

Too right - I'd make an awful chef. I do cook things, though, and I know that left-over sprouts (which will be most of them, probab;y) can easily be made into delicious and nutricious sprout soup, thus negating all the work put into morticing them in the first place. The bacon tenons would improve the flavour though, to be fair.

Anybody got a mortice chisel the same thickness as a bacon rasher?

 

[Jacob]

Do what you like - I use a morticing machine myself.

Presumably Mister Ford taught you to do this, then?

No it was all hand tools.
This thread is about morticing with hand tools in case you hadn't noticed. Nobody thinks it is quicker or more efficient than using a machine.

 

[Jacob]

..
Anybody got a mortice chisel the same thickness as a bacon rasher?

Yes I've got one at 1/8". They are not uncommon. I've seen thicker rashers of bacon!
Not sure who would have wanted to use them but I guess it could have been for those bits of 18 to early 20C apparatus like cameras, musical instruments, guns, scientific instruments, clocks etc. etc. where there is fine woodwork and metalwork together.
Church organs?

 

[Tasky]

The bacon tenons would improve the flavour though, to be fair.
Anybody got a mortice chisel the same thickness as a bacon rasher?

Sprouts should never be served without bacon, in my house - Lack of bacon is probably the main reason so many people hate them!!

But forget rashers. These are bacon tenons, cut directly from the slab. If you go for average lardon dimensions, you're only looking at ¼" anyway and I'm sure you can find a ¼" chisel...

This thread is about morticing with hand tools in case you hadn't noticed. Nobody thinks it is quicker or more efficient than using a machine.

Then why bother even mentioning the machine?

 

[Jacob]

.....
Then why bother even mentioning the machine?

Because some plonker who hadn't read the thread seemed to think I was recommending hand tool morticing instead of machine.