Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices

[bugbear]

Aside from that, I think we probably need a list of approved words, context, statements, etc. for Bugbear.

Plain English words, used in their conventional common meanings will serve very well.

For me, and others.

BugBear

 

[Tasky]

And then, the suggestion (and I have to assume only one person is this far off base....) is that we can't learn much from it because we don't know what to feel....

Uh-huh.... not what I said, but carry on.

I hope that nobody else new to the hobby doesn't think that they can't learn from someone by watching them without being told what to feel.

You'll probably find many DIY disasters happen because people have done exactly that - Watched a competent professional and thought they'd learned everything they needed to know just from watching.
That's how it often goes in every other walk of life... Woodworking is no different.

Someone has to tell you what to feel when you're out of square? Again, I'm baffled.

Again, not what I said.

Nobody has to tell them what to feel. If they have a fraction of a brain, they find out that they're out of square one way or another and practice to correct it.

And practice and practice and practice but getting nowhere, forever mucking it up because they don't understand the few fundamental things the professional is doing which cannot be seen by eye. DIY amateur.

If you don't want to get better at something, that's fine. It's pretty easy to stay stagnant, but people don't usually go searching for information and inspiration when they're trying to stagnate.

Again not what I said.

Your Karate example is dopey, and it also has nothing to do with woodworking. It's dopey because you're suggesting that someone who "got better" would not be better. If that doesn't sink in, I'll let you figure it out.

And again, not what I said.

I'm still baffled how something relatively simple can be turned into such a bunch of obfuscation.

Easy - You think you're right and everyone else is wrong, so you don't actually bother reading what they're saying and instead make up your own argument to battle against and confuse yourself over.
It's a coping mechanism to avoid facing your own flaws... and like in all my examples given above, it happens in EVERY walk of human life... including Woodworking.

No need to feel embarrassed. It's just how the human mind works.

This stuff is just *way* too far out for me. I'm just looking to watch someone who does something better than I can do it and see what I can pick up from it.

Good luck with that...
I'd rather talk to them and *know* what they're doing.

I don't to ask them about their feelings, talk about drum sets or discuss lapping telescope lenses.

Who mentioned feelings?
I've been talking about the physical sensations in their fingers, not their bloody emotions... !!

 

[bugbear]

Good luck with that...
I'd rather talk to them and *know* what they're doing.
...
I've been talking about the physical sensations in their fingers, not their bloody emotions... !!

There's an example which always interested me; I you carefully watch and/or measure the work of a professional self bow maker, and reproduce his work exactly to the 1/10 thou of an inch...

Your bow will fail. Every time.

It's not just the what (which can be observed), it's the why.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Good luck with that...
I'd rather talk to them and *know* what they're doing.
...
I've been talking about the physical sensations in their fingers, not their bloody emotions... !!

There's an example which always interested me; I you carefully watch and/or measure the work of a professional self bow maker, and reproduce his work exactly to the 1/10 thou of an inch...

Your bow will fail. Every time.

It's not just the what (which can be observed), it's the why.

BugBear

Perhaps you can tell us just how much why you need for mortise and microtensions...er tenons.

 

[Jacob]

Good luck with that...
I'd rather talk to them and *know* what they're doing.
...
I've been talking about the physical sensations in their fingers, not their bloody emotions... !!

There's an example which always interested me; I you carefully watch and/or measure the work of a professional self bow maker, and reproduce his work exactly to the 1/10 thou of an inch...

Your bow will fail. Every time.

It's not just the what (which can be observed), it's the why.

BugBear

You'd get better at it after a few failures.

Had to look up 'self bow'. How do they fail - do they snap in two or something?

 

[bugbear]

You'd get better at it after a few failures.

Had to look up 'self bow'. How do they fail - do they snap in two or something?

Yes.

BugBear

 

[Dangermouse 2nd]

Bloody hell another thread filled with useless infighting, can we please stick to something related to woodwork, not personal vendetta please!!!

 

[D_W]

You'd get better at it after a few failures.

Had to look up 'self bow'. How do they fail - do they snap in two or something?

Yes.

BugBear

Jeez...and here, I thought this thing had something to do with instruments. Presumably, it has some mortises on it?

 

[Jacob]

You'd get better at it after a few failures.

Had to look up 'self bow'. How do they fail - do they snap in two or something?

Yes.

BugBear

Just guessing - it must be about shaping and following the grain?

 

[Tasky]

Just guessing - it must be about shaping and following the grain?

Also guessing, but I believe it's to do with how the grain behaves when the bow is bent - The back will stretch while the belly compresses. Usually you'd laminate different woods better at one or the other accordingly - My last bow was a hickory back and maple belly, as I recall.
With a self bow, it's made from one piece, so you need a single bit of wood with grain that does both...

 

[Trafalgar]

Compression set, anyone?

 

[D_W]

Compression....there's another music tie-in here.

 

[Tasky]

Compression set, anyone?

Sounds like something my mechanic uses to balance my carbs... !! :lol:


Nah, I did Google it and it sounds like you're right.

 

[G S Haydon]

Two mortices in less than four minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjFlsH2AAI8

 

[D_W]

Two mortices in less than four minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjFlsH2AAI8

This fellow is exactly who I was talking about when I referred to someone who clearly did this for a living for a while. You can learn a lot more from him than you can from paul sellers, but you'll have to observe and think.

he's shown some stools and other through mortised items that put to rest whether or not he can cut them neatly enough for show.

He also uses a mortise chisel (surprise) and not a blue marples, and he doesn't preach about lifestyle (like sellers does) or push absurdly expensive measuring tools, etc.

Hey, jacob - did you notice that he's gotten so quick that he doesn't even turn the chisel. He rides the bevel on one side, but not the other.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Hey, jacob - did you notice that he's gotten so quick that he doesn't even turn the chisel. He rides the bevel on one side, but not the other.

I'll have a look when I can spare 39 minutes to watch the vid!
Sounds interesting though.

 

[D_W]

.....
Hey, jacob - did you notice that he's gotten so quick that he doesn't even turn the chisel. He rides the bevel on one side, but not the other.

I'll have a look when I can spare 39 minutes to watch the vid!
Sounds interesting though.

The mortising part is only a couple of minutes in the beginning. I'm sure there are more, but points from it:
* he sits on the work so that he's in good position to look at it without screwing around with a vise
* he cuts both sides of the mortise without turning the chisel

In the end, the picture frame that he's making is quite nice, and it's strong enough for war without looking bulky or dumb.

I admire the guy, he builds things in his videos with no BS. He puts the small pieces up in a metalworking vise instead of stooping down at a woodworking bench, and he's got a lot of shop made planes (always love that) and saws.

Plus, he works at a pace that I could only dream of - without rushing or geting sloppy.

 

[Tasky]

You can learn a lot more from him than you can from paul sellers, but you'll have to observe and think.

You can get a different perspective, sure... not certain it's more, as such, unless they come from the same particular corners of the industry.
See, what I find of greatest interest was that, in showing bevelled chisel mortising, Sellers claims that this is what was done by all those around him during his apprenticeship. Assuming that to be truth, surely there's a reason why they'd do that?
Along the same line of thinking, Sellers does actually advocate the use of mortising chisels, and is merely showing that he can do it with bevel-edged ones "just as fast".

He also uses a mortise chisel (surprise) and not a blue marples, and he doesn't preach about lifestyle (like sellers does) or push absurdly expensive measuring tools, etc.

What does Sellers push that's absurdly expensive? If anything, he seems like an advocate for cheap bodges, half the time!
But like the guy in your video says, there's various ways of mortising and that's just the one his master taught him. Sellers shows what he was taught and is pretty fast at it. Both look like thay can knock one out (fnar fnar) before their cuppa has finished brewing, so surely it's all good?

Maybe that's the problem - Maybe Sellers is actually SOOOOOO fast at mortising that he has THAT much time to waste on the lifestyle philosophy stuff? Maybe he's done his bit and is just killing time while waiting for his own apprentices to catch up on their tasks? :lol:

* he sits on the work so that he's in good position to look at it without screwing around with a vise

I could never sit and work in that position, though - My back would be screaming agony about 30 seconds in.
Does that mean I am doomed to never cut a mortise properly?

I admire the guy, he builds things in his videos with no BS.

He's not really doing an instructional video though, is he?

Plus, he works at a pace that I could only dream of - without rushing or geting sloppy.

But I thought you only liked to watch?

 

[D_W]

The or in the statement about sellers is intended to differentiate him (selling lifestyle gibberish) and someone else (pushing expensive marking and measuring tools, or other nonsense that you can certainly buy, but that's not necessary to have).

As far as the Chinese fellow in the videos, yes, he's doing instruction, but he's not really catering to the group who wants pretty books, DVDs or theme courses.

I have read a little bit about him on other sites, but can't remember his name. I believe he's crossing over to making money instructing (or has been for a little while) and his hair is whiter now. No clue when these videos were made, but they are infinitely more useful to anyone other than a rank beginner vs. the oversold mortise against glass video.

(and you get to see the entire frame being built).

 

[D_W]

But I thought you only liked to watch?

This is going to be a tough hobby if you have a bad back. Not that you can't do it, you can replace a lot of these things with machine work and just stop if it hurts. I wouldn't undertake much hand work with bad shoulders, elbows, knees or back, though. Just my opinion.

Of course I like to watch legitimate woodworkers, but it wouldn't be much fun to watch them if you weren't intending to actually do them. We already have a show on PBS here in the states that is mostly watched by people who don't woodwork.

I'll bet quite a bit of sellers' revenue is generated on the gym membership model, too. (It looks good, sounds nice, you pay your dues and then change your mind and write off the cost as a bad spend).