Quotation help

[Filament]

The above method(listing the things that make yours better) is totally wrong. Someone who is eventually going to make it themselves isn't a typical customer. People really don't care. If people could have an exact replica of a black range rover on the drive as a status enhancer at a 10th the price seriously that would be a thing. No engine no suspension zero. People are this shallow.
I'm just considering working for a company atm. There literature/marketing is a complete fabrication. Hundreds of reviews. 9.8 trust pilot everything. They haven't completed a single job. Guess what....they've got lots of work....lots and lots. Now there trying to find a way to fulfil!

Disagree. You’re right that some won’t care but if you don’t do it, then all you can do is win work by undercutting and luck.
If everyone assumes ‘they’re all the same’ it only benefits the lowest common denominator (note how the concept of ‘all politicians are dodgy you just have to accept it’ means the bent ones can carry on being bent and harms the decent ones)

No, people don’t know. But they will if you educate them a little. Also, it will whittle out the customers who really don’t care at all, which may be a good thing.

Given that marketing has a lot of success in doing very disingenuous tactics like ‘our blackcurrant squash contains no plutonium!’ (Which suggests to the consumer that other squashes do have this contamination even though none of them do)
Then doing truthful marketing showing the benefits of your work and giving them enough to recognise why the competing quotes may be a false economy is a no-brainer.

People love feeling that they know a little. They can then tell people why their new thing is made of a particular material, where it came from etc.

Yes not all people etc. etc. but as I say, if you assume no one cares then the only game in town is price.

 

[johnnyb]

In reality the only game is price. Whether its low price or high price. Actual quality is not relevant only perceived quality. Your not typical because you made it yourself and had a "revelation" that actual quality may vary. Now imagine your not going to build it and just have it made. You would want different things depending on your price point. High end you want it like in some footballers house/magazine expo. Price is irrelevant but it must be like you've seen. Mid range must look like the above and fit my budget. And mass consumption well price is overriding all. Quality is a subjective thing. My quality is often very different to others.

 

[johnnyb]

No there employing me and its on site. Maybe some outsourcing as they have zero facilities but we've not discussed that
I'm highly suspicious of the entire thing being Frank!

 

[Spectric]

I have been asked to quote for a 1.5m wide set of bedroom drawers. The total is eye watering, but when broken down seems reasonable. Roughly half materials and half labour.

The bottom line depends on if this is your main source of income or something that has an element of personal enjoyment / satisfaction. Either way you must cover the cost of all materials including sundries such as fixings and hardware but what you charge in labour can be more flexable. If it is your main source of income then you need to earn an income that covers your living expenses but if it is something that you do to supplement your main income or maybe for the pleasure then you can be more competative and charge accordingly, ie undercutting the competition. If you have priced the job and the overal cost of materials and labour seem very high then that is the quotation, the materials are what they are and you are charging a rate that you are happy to do the work so if the customer declines then just walk away, the worst thing you can do is to start reducing your quotation because then you can end up doing a job for less than minimum wage and it can become a chore, plus the potential customer might think you were just trying it on and you lose the job anyway.

 

[Samkilby]

The above method(listing the things that make yours better) is totally wrong. Someone who is eventually going to make it themselves isn't a typical customer. People really don't care. If people could have an exact replica of a black range rover on the drive as a status enhancer at a 10th the price seriously that would be a thing. No engine no suspension zero. People are this shallow.
I'm just considering working for a company atm. There literature/marketing is a complete fabrication. Hundreds of reviews. 9.8 trust pilot everything. They haven't completed a single job. Guess what....they've got lots of work....lots and lots. Now there trying to find a way to fulfil!

Whilst I agree that some potential clients are in the boat you are talking about, it’s also our responsibility to educate them on why they are wrong. I can’t expect them to know the difference between types of mdf, and I feel obliged to justify my pricing to them.

If you read what I originally said a bit more in depth - list on the quote the materials, methods of construction etc.
then after they have had time to digest phone them to discuss why your pricing is where it is. There may be options to make it cheaper madam, but this is the reason I wouldn’t recommend it, ah yes sir, I understand you have received a quote for £300, but have you considered xyz.

Personally I think it’s a bit. Well arrogant perhaps is the right word, to assume clients would know the minutiae of what I’m doing and the choices I’m making, let alone the time investment in producing quality work. I need to let them know my way is best, and the reason I prefer that way. Leaning on my experience and training.
And maybe down the line give them options for reducing the cost, but caveat what effect that will have on the look, functionality, longevity etc. don’t offer things you wouldn’t be comfortable putting your name to, and explain why.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm a maker I'm interested in this stuff. Your also a maker. Nobody else is the slightest bit interested in how it's made or what from or any other technical detail. How much. How long. How glossy. How certain am I that I'll get what's on your brochure. Maybe do I like you even.

 

[Doug71]

Clients like it if you seem passionate about what you do, I probably come over as a real woodworking geek to them when I start explaining some of the details and why I do it things a certain way. I think it gives the impression I'm knowledgeable and care about what I do which can can make you stand out from the crowd.

Some people just want the cheapest price, they are not worth bothering with and will probably be trouble further down the line.

I hate pricing jobs, been doing it for years and still haven't worked it out.

 

[niall Y]

When I was in business I found that a good rule of thumb was 1/3 materials, 1/3 overheads , and 1/3 earnings. This then was a base-line below which the quotes couldn't fall. It was then a matter of properly pricing, for the actual job in hand, taking into account all the materials that were to be used, including a nominal charge for associated items like glue, screws, nails etc.

One then had to be realistic about the actual time that the job would take. and this is a lot easier to gauge the more experienced you are. To this has to be added a proportional amount for overheads.

This then gives you the price to charge. Others. no doubt, will be cheaper, and others , dearer, But, more importantly, it is the price, that each of us will have to charge, based on our own particular set ups, experience and skill.

It is at this point, that doubts can begin to creep in, about whether the quote seems too expensive.. But this is something that, ultimately, only the client can decide. If you are tempted to tweak the figure downward then you will start to lose money.

 

[Spectric]

Actual quality is not relevant only perceived quality

That is why the German motor industry survives, people still perceive them as 100% German engineering when in reality many are made in eastern europe using parts from suppliers used by many other manufacturers. @johnnyb is right, these days quality is only skin deep and visual which is what many of these home renovation programs deliver, be interesting to see how the work holds up in say four or five years time.

To make a living out of woodworking these days is going to be tough, much easier if you do it as a second income because your customer base is so small, people are happy to just buy mass produced stuff that looks good and they will change it in five years time for more mass produced stuff. You need a more niche market, people with money to burn and in a situation that prevents them just buying off the shelf. So older properties where you might need to assemble the furniture on location because you cannot get fully assembled furniture in, I dare say this is a market that @petermillard delivers into as he has done some good videos on the sort of tools that are needed like the Lamello and the peanut system.

 

[Kayen]

Can I yell help to those people that do bespoke commisions on a regular basis?

I have been asked to quote for a 1.5m wide set of bedroom drawers. The total is eye watering, but when broken down seems reasonable. Roughly half materials and half labour.

This is my first paying customer - would anyone be kind enough to sanity check my numbers by private messaging?

Thank you

It's difficult to price things without any details. For a start, drawer runners can cost anything from £5 to £50 each.

Most clients aren't bothered if they are dovetailed (unnecessary if using metal, self-close runners) so I would advise you to not go down that route.

I would charge around £3000 for a free-standing drawer unit that has to be finished on 4 faces, using good quality concealed under-mount runners and spray-finished with a catalysed lacquer.

 

[Spectric]

I would charge around £3000 for a free-standing drawer unit

But you can buy for a lot less, yours may be much better quality and last for decades but a lot of people just do not get this, quality and good engineering come at a price and a lot of people do not even know the difference between MDF and ply let alone types of joints.

 

[johnnyb]

Your better not getting the job than underpricing it. If its your first undertakings maybe other rules apply but your still losing money albeit gaining some experience. Which may or may not sweeten that pill a bit.

 

[Kayen]

But you can buy for a lot less, yours may be much better quality and last for decades but a lot of people just do not get this, quality and good engineering come at a price and a lot of people do not even know the difference between MDF and ply let alone types of joints.

Yes, absolutely - there's a guy on YT that sprays his furniture with emulsion paint!
My customers don't want to know what materials I use or any details, it just has to be 'right'. I never scrimp on materials or method, and I always deliver bang on the agreed time. It comes down to running just one job at a time and you can only do that by getting your pricing right.

 

[HOJ]

probably come over as a real woodworking geek to them when I start explaining some of the details and why I do it things a certain way. I think it gives the impression I'm knowledgeable

When I talk to clients they look as if they are either bewildered, going to fall asleep or they conveniently find something to do elsewhere...

 

[Terry - Somerset]

To custom make any furniture or fittings is likely to be significantly more expensive than any that can be bought retail - whether it is Ikea, M&S. Oak Furnitureland or John Lewis. If customers are not prepared to understand and pay for quality, price become the dominant issue.

Design is critical to costing - at a very simple level a dovetailed drawer will take much longer than one held together with glue, dowels or nails. MDF, ply or solid wood for a carcase will impact both material cost and processing time.

To make a living from joinery (not sure this is the right word) then the hourly rates charged should reflect this. Compared to other trades - plumbers, electricians, plasterers, car mechanics etc - to which comparison could be made, a rate of £30-45 per hour would be reasonable.

If you work 44 weeks a year (it is reasonable to take a holiday!!) for 30 chargeable hours per week this would generate an income of £40-60k. Bear in mind you need to provide for your own pension and pay national insurance bringing the net down to ~£30-40k (OK but hardly huge)

Overheads in woodworking are probably higher - expensive machinery, blades and sharpening, insurances, van, consumables etc.

I am reminded of one very professional highly skilled public sector organisation (which will remain nameless) which was encouraged to become more commercial in anticipation of privatisation.

I was recruited as business advisor - an early issue was their pricing policy. I found they were charging less than 50% of their real costs - simply because they did not really understand what their costs were. A strategy of increasing prices was implemented - most customers did not like it but accepted they had had an unralistically good deal for decades!

 

[Yorkieguy]

OK £30.

My 22 year old granddaughter charges that per hour for Spanish and Maths private tuition for ‘A’ level revision students, plus travel cost at the same rate to and from the client. She has none of the overheads incurred by skilled self-employed tradesman.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm on a joinery page and the guys on there seem to compete to suggest outrageous prices. One on atm is a set of panelled gates in accoya. No hardware, not fitted. The original guy is saying 5200 plus vat. One guy is suggesting £6900 plus vat! Wtf! Thats £8300! Must be 10k fitted blimey. Such prices are beyond the pale where I'm from.