Question about router cutters for AQ21

[mrodent]

I've been experimenting with my Makita 1/4" router device (it's actually called a "Trimmer" on the box rather than a "Router", which is interesting).

I have a Wealden 1/4" shank bit (T5887 on this page) for cutting "just grooves" for AQ21 weatherseal. My understanding is that the idea here is that the weatherseal will then be a "compression" seal, and is suitable where gaps are 4 mm - 7 mm or so.

But I think some of the windows in my house (1930s semi with original windows) probably have a smaller gap, and my understanding is that the other way to install AQ21 is as a "brush" or "wiping" seal, which involves making a rabbet AND a groove. There are lots of bits advertised for this precise purpose, e.g. Wealden, this page. But what I see there, and everywhere else, is that they never seem to offer this kind of bit in 1/4" shank. Wealden there are doing 1/2", 3/8" and 8 mm.

Is the explanation for this that a 1/4" router ("trimmer") and bits are considered to be under-powered for this kind of job? I am frankly terrified of this machine (22k rpm something like that) and have done quite a bit of research into the safe use of it. One thing people say is do multiple passes, shaving off more as you go, rather than digging out great gouges each time. With this approach I would have thought 1/4" would be OK, certainly for the kind of softwood involved (pine) ... and also there's hardly any difference between 1/4" and 8 mm (BTW I've read in a couple of places that you shouldn't ever contemplate using a bit with a shank that is "nearly right", though I sometimes wonder about that, given that I'm pretty sure I could tighten the collet perfectly adequately on an 8 mm shank...).

Given the amount of money I'm saving by not using professionals (even assuming any could actually be found to do the specific job I'm doing, in London - I'm installing LandVac vacuum glazing panes, which are slightly bigger and quite a bit thicker than the existing single glazing), I'm happy to spend what I have to on necessary kit.

How essential is it that I acquire a 1/2" router in order to do these brush seal rabbet-and-grooves?

 

[RogerS]

I think that the reason why they don't offer that cutter in a 1/4" format is because (a) 99% of people using the cutter will be trade and (b) most likely that the router to hand for a tradesman is a 1/2". Nothing at all to do with any extra power being needed for that cutter.

If you do go down that route, have you thought how you're going to get into the corners ?

What's wrong with stick-on weather seals ?

 

[Ollie78]

The AQ 21 can be used either way. I have a trend router bit which does the groove with rebate in one pass. It is a 1/2 inch cutter as it is quite big. I wouldn`t think you could spin it with a trim router. Also its a stability issue with a heavy cutter spinning you need mass and a wide platform for control, the gyroscopic force of a big cutter can be noticeable, though you do slow the router down depending on diameter of the cutter.

You can do the groove with a saw kerf and then run a normal router bit to do the rebate, its not very deep so should prove more appropriate to your smaller router.

An 8mm bit is considerably bigger than a 1/4 inch (6.35) NEVER use the wrong size collet.

Ollie

 

[sams93]

I use my dewalt trim router with this rabbeting set sometomes, works fine. Remember that the larger the bit you are using, the slower the speed you want to run it (as the tip moves faster than the middle - tip further from bit = faster!)

https://routercutter.co.uk/multi-rabbeting-set

 

[Doug71]

What @Ollie78 said plus the AQ21 router cutters often have long shanks as the grooves can be set quite low down the rebates, this means the cutter sticking out a long way below the router which makes it even harder to handle.

 

[mrodent]

Thanks to all, all very useful.

@RogerS: these are on the *outside* of the frame, a casement frame, i.e. the bit which swings and is attached to the fixed frame by a hinge. So no issue with corners. In fact I'm expanding the (inner) rabbet, to hold the new pane, by hand: I have these sorts of skills plus some very sharp chisels. Slower, but much more pleasant, for me, than using a router/trimmer.

@Ollie78 Two different bits: that makes perfect sense as a solution ... Point taken about gyro forces. Thanks.

 

[sams93]

Thanks to all, all very useful.

@RogerS: these are on the *outside* of the frame, a casement frame, i.e. the bit which swings and is attached to the fixed frame by a hinge. So no issue with corners. In fact I'm expanding the (inner) rabbet, to hold the new pane, by hand: I have these sorts of skills plus some very sharp chisels. Slower, but much more pleasant, for me, than using a router/trimmer.

@Ollie78 Two different bits: that makes perfect sense as a solution ... Point taken about gyro forces. Thanks.

Just wondering, before you start going at it with a router, is there a risk there might be some nails in the frame?

Separately, it would probably be best to take the frame off and then do the operations you discuss with your router mounted in a table.

 

[TRITON]

(it's actually called a "Trimmer" on the box rather than a "Router", which is interesting).

The origin is from trimming things like veneers(be that wood or plastic) and I would think comes from the shopfitting trade.

They've become more mainstream due to their small neat and easy to use one handed.

But in my opinion its not a suitable tool for routing anything other than small trimming jobs. Its unsuitable for jobs like large edge mouldings or template work. Or in fact anything that uses a large(long/deep) cutter. There its required to use both hands to control the tool.

Their evolution has been for the simple trimmer to come equipped with a range of bases so you can trim, or use larger cutters for example in the plunge base. So I suppose its now a multi function tool.

Whether thats a good thing or bad I couldn't really say as I've a range of routers from small trimmer up to 3+hp 1/2ers. The right tool for the right job.

 

[johnnyb]

Firstly maybe I'm wrong here but you sound like a "have a go hero" who's had a London quote for this job and thinks how hard can it be. Just be aware of your limitations here.
Secondly I normally put a block on the router base and work on a flat bench to stop tipping here. Thirdly as mentioned be careful with nails.

 

[Fitzroy]

As another competent DIYer with 1000s of hours of woodworking under my belt, or is that the definition of a 'have a go hero', I've been working out how to install AQ21 on my sash windows. I have the the 1/2" AQ21 rebating router cutter and I've moved away from using it as the groove it cuts is 2mm deeper than it needs to be and on my old sashes that extra depth takes material I want to retain. I have started to cut the slots on the table saw, and then a rebate on the router table.

Could you post some images of the LandVac panels? Vac glazing is my current thought process for my sash windows but it's hard to get a good photo of the vac unit edges and the plug.

Fitz

 

[scholar]

I've been experimenting with my Makita 1/4" router device (it's actually called a "Trimmer" on the box rather than a "Router", which is interesting).

I have a Wealden 1/4" shank bit (T5887 on this page) for cutting "just grooves" for AQ21 weatherseal. My understanding is that the idea here is that the weatherseal will then be a "compression" seal, and is suitable where gaps are 4 mm - 7 mm or so.

But I think some of the windows in my house (1930s semi with original windows) probably have a smaller gap, and my understanding is that the other way to install AQ21 is as a "brush" or "wiping" seal, which involves making a rabbet AND a groove. There are lots of bits advertised for this precise purpose, e.g. Wealden, this page. But what I see there, and everywhere else, is that they never seem to offer this kind of bit in 1/4" shank. Wealden there are doing 1/2", 3/8" and 8 mm.

Is the explanation for this that a 1/4" router ("trimmer") and bits are considered to be under-powered for this kind of job? I am frankly terrified of this machine (22k rpm something like that) and have done quite a bit of research into the safe use of it. One thing people say is do multiple passes, shaving off more as you go, rather than digging out great gouges each time. With this approach I would have thought 1/4" would be OK, certainly for the kind of softwood involved (pine) ... and also there's hardly any difference between 1/4" and 8 mm (BTW I've read in a couple of places that you shouldn't ever contemplate using a bit with a shank that is "nearly right", though I sometimes wonder about that, given that I'm pretty sure I could tighten the collet perfectly adequately on an 8 mm shank...).

Given the amount of money I'm saving by not using professionals (even assuming any could actually be found to do the specific job I'm doing, in London - I'm installing LandVac vacuum glazing panes, which are slightly bigger and quite a bit thicker than the existing single glazing), I'm happy to spend what I have to on necessary kit.

How essential is it that I acquire a 1/2" router in order to do these brush seal rabbet-and-grooves?

If you bought the kit you linked to, that comes with a 3/8” collet, so you could get a 3/8” shank cutter.
I have a cheap Katsu copy of this router and they supply an 8mm collet.
Definitely work out how to make a wider base for the job.

Cheers

 

[HOJ]

Could you post some images of the LandVac panels? Vac glazing is my current thought process for my sash windows but it's hard to get a good photo of the vac unit edges and the plug.

Apologies for thread drift @mrodent but @Fitzroy worth having a look at the Fineo option, just received my order, we had samples of both the Landvac and Fineo but the "plug" on the Landvac swung our favour to the Fineo option.

But the spacer dots can still be an issue:

 

[mrodent]

@Fitzroy

Here are a couple of pictures. The measurement from the outside to the inside of the brown line is precisely 10 mm. However, because of these two plugs and the curved corners of the brown stuff obviously these things will be visible from more than that from the edges at those points. As can be seen there is a "plug" in one corner and another blue disk incorporated in the glass at another corner along the long edge. The other 2 corners have no plugs or anything, but just that slight in-curving piece of brown stuff. In fact the brown stuff will be hidden completely in those 2 corners if 13 mm of the edge is hidden: you can't see it in the photos but the glass changes texture at that point: I assume that's the edge of the vacuum.

Hiding 23 mm from the long edge with the two pluggy things would conceal these completely. I only ordered a first batch of panes: on the next order I'll probably make allowance for that, i.e. plan to widen the rabbet on one of the long edges to 25 mm or something. This won't compromise the frame structurally: also these panes themselves obviously also contribute something, making the casement stronger overall than with single glazing.

For you that might depend on how wide and deep the timber in your sash frames is. Just speculating wildly, and bearing in mind the usual design of sash windows, you might need to enlarge the rabbet on one of the **short** edges (i.e. the broad tab at the top/bottom), so you might need to stipulate to LandVac that you'd want the two pluggy things on a shorter edge not a longer one (assuming they can do that...).

In fact, the more I think about sash frames, I wonder whether you can realistically hope to conceal all the "brown stuff" on the other side, i.e. at the bar where the 2 sashes are fastened with a latch: in my experience these are usually quite thin, not allowing much enlargement of the rabbet situation there. In your shoes I might think in terms of adding an extra strip of thin wood just to conceal the unsightly brown stuff ... if this is feasible. I'd be interested to see what solution you find if you do go for LandVac.

Not all vacuum glazing is created equal. I did a fair bit of research into what the experts were saying and LandVac definitely came out top in terms of heat insulation and acoustic insulation. This is a site I've just found at random: see also the subtle points about appearance.

Re other questions: this trimmer/router is installed (i.e. with the bit upwards) securely in a very secure and heavy router table fashioned from an old chest of draws. It ain't going anywhere. The thought of using any router ever just pushing by hand (or two hands) ... suffice to say I'll definitely be leaving that to the professionals.

 

[mrodent]

If you bought the kit you linked to, that comes with a 3/8” collet, so you could get a 3/8” shank cutter.
I have a cheap Katsu copy of this router and they supply an 8mm collet.
Definitely work out how to make a wider base for the job.

Cheers

Thanks, this is a bit of a revelation.

I've just looked in the box and at the manual. In the booklet it lists "optional accessories" and they include, lo and behold,
"...
Collet cone 6.35 mm (1/4)
Collet cone 8 mm
Collet cone 9.53 mm (3/8")
..."
(it also says "never use other accessories than those listed here")

I already have the 1/4" one (on the right in the photo below) ... and digging around in the box I found another small metal thing which I am now beginning to believe is a 3/8" collet cone. As you can see, the one on the left is far smaller, but the inner diameter is precisely 3/8": larger than 8 mm, in fact almost bang on 10 mm. NB 3/8" = 9.525 mm. It also fits perfectly into the router shaft, and the collet nut can then be tightened on it. It also only has one slot, whereas the 1/4" one has 4 slots.

If that is indeed a 3/8" collet cone it's quite strange that it's so different in design from the 1/4" one. And yet proof of the pudding is not hard to find. To my eye the 1/4" cone appears to hold the cutter shaft more securely because of that cylindrical extension at the bottom. But maybe you only need that precisely because the 1/4" diameter is so much smaller than the inner diameter of the drive shaft, which appears to taper inwards as it goes down.

 

[TRITON]

Firstly maybe I'm wrong here but you sound like a "have a go hero" who's had a London quote for this job and thinks how hard can it be. Just be aware of your limitations here.
Secondly I normally put a block on the router base and work on a flat bench to stop tipping here. Thirdly as mentioned be careful with nails.

The offset base can be fitted which gives the base footprint more scope as it is far less likely to try to tip over.(On the makita 700)
One of the big problems with these trimmers I feel, is their small base and the fact the motor is so high up lends itself a tendency to want to tip over.

I think I've a pic somewhere on here showing the standard trim base retro fitted to the offset base plate. As the base plate is only a plastic bit, you can take it off and the holes are in much the same place so you can utilize it for a different option.

Found the pic. The handle is off an angle grinder,

 

[Adam W.]

Thanks, this is a bit of a revelation.

I've just looked in the box and at the manual. In the booklet it lists "optional accessories" and they include, lo and behold,
"...
Collet cone 6.35 mm (1/4)
Collet cone 8 mm
Collet cone 9.53 mm (3/8")
..."
(it also says "never use other accessories than those listed here")

I already have the 1/4" one (on the right in the photo below) ... and digging around in the box I found another small metal thing which I am now beginning to believe is a 3/8" collet cone. As you can see, the one on the left is far smaller, but the inner diameter is precisely 3/8": larger than 8 mm, in fact almost bang on 10 mm. NB 3/8" = 9.525 mm. It also fits perfectly into the router shaft, and the collet nut can then be tightened on it. It also only has one slot, whereas the 1/4" one has 4 slots.

If that is indeed a 3/8" collet cone it's quite strange that it's so different in design from the 1/4" one. And yet proof of the pudding is not hard to find. To my eye the 1/4" cone appears to hold the cutter shaft more securely because of that cylindrical extension at the bottom. But maybe you only need that precisely because the 1/4" diameter is so much smaller than the inner diameter of the drive shaft, which appears to taper inwards as it goes down.

It does indeed look like a collet cone.

I have the same router for doing fire door stuff like 15mmm intumescent strip and seal.....which to be truthful isn't really my bag, but there you go. I shall look in my box for the 3/8 collet cone when I get to see the router again.

 

[Ollie78]

@Fitzroy

Here are a couple of pictures. The measurement from the outside to the inside of the brown line is precisely 10 mm. However, because of these two plugs and the curved corners of the brown stuff obviously these things will be visible from more than that from the edges at those points. As can be seen there is a "plug" in one corner and another blue disk incorporated in the glass at another corner along the long edge. The other 2 corners have no plugs or anything, but just that slight in-curving piece of brown stuff. In fact the brown stuff will be hidden completely in those 2 corners if 13 mm of the edge is hidden: you can't see it in the photos but the glass changes texture at that point: I assume that's the edge of the vacuum.

Hiding 23 mm from the long edge with the two pluggy things would conceal these completely. I only ordered a first batch of panes: on the next order I'll probably make allowance for that, i.e. plan to widen the rabbet on one of the long edges to 25 mm or something. This won't compromise the frame structurally: also these panes themselves obviously also contribute something, making the casement stronger overall than with single glazing.

For you that might depend on how wide and deep the timber in your sash frames is. Just speculating wildly, and bearing in mind the usual design of sash windows, you might need to enlarge the rabbet on one of the **short** edges (i.e. the broad tab at the top/bottom), so you might need to stipulate to LandVac that you'd want the two pluggy things on a shorter edge not a longer one (assuming they can do that...).

In fact, the more I think about sash frames, I wonder whether you can realistically hope to conceal all the "brown stuff" on the other side, i.e. at the bar where the 2 sashes are fastened with a latch: in my experience these are usually quite thin, not allowing much enlargement of the rabbet situation there. In your shoes I might think in terms of adding an extra strip of thin wood just to conceal the unsightly brown stuff ... if this is feasible. I'd be interested to see what solution you find if you do go for LandVac.

Not all vacuum glazing is created equally. I did a fair bit of research into what the experts were saying and LandVac definitely came out top in terms of heat insulation and acoustic insulation. This is a site I've just found at random: see also the subtle points about appearance.

Re other questions: this trimmer/router is installed (i.e. with the bit upwards) securely in a very secure and heavy router table fashioned from an old chest of draws. It ain't going anywhere. The thought of using any router ever just pushing by hand (or two hands) ... suffice to say I'll definitely be leaving that to the professionals.

I am surprised the sightline is so large considering you can get a 6.5mm sightline on slim DGU`s. Is the brown plug thing permanent ? Seems like a bit of a scruffy solution.

Ollie

 

[mrodent]

I am surprised the sightline is so large considering you can get a 6.5mm sightline on slim DGU`s. Is the brown plug thing permanent ? Seems like a bit of a scruffy solution.

Ollie

I've just cleaned up the "brown" plug: it's actually yellow. Yes, it and the plug on the other side are certainly permanent.

Vacuum-glazing is a different animal entirely to normal double-glazing, I think that's pretty obvious. The heat and acoustic ratings for LandVac are as good as triple glazing, with a much smaller thickness. As I say, depending on the type of frame involved, there may or may not be obvious ways of concealing the unsightly stuff.

You pays your money and makes your choice. No point comparing apples and pomegranates.

 

[Fitzroy]

@mrodent and @HOJ thanks so much for the photos and measurements, super useful. Would you be willing to share the approximate price per m2 you paid, and wait time for delivery,

Thanks

Craig

 

[Ollie78]

I've just cleaned up the "brown" plug: it's actually yellow. Yes, it and the plug on the other side are certainly permanent.

Vacuum-glazing is a different animal entirely to normal double-glazing, I think that's pretty obvious. The heat and acoustic ratings for LandVac are as good as triple glazing, with a much smaller thickness. As I say, depending on the type of frame involved, there may or may not be obvious ways of concealing the unsightly stuff.

You pays your money and makes your choice. No point comparing apples and pomegranates.

Its just the first time I have ever actually seen any so was a bit surprised, it clearly has very impressive qualities for sound and thermal.
In the advertising images they obviously omit the plug from all images.
I do a lot of upgraded sliding sashes with heritage units and it would be good to offer the vacuum stuff but with the large seal plug and sightline its not likely to be possible. Its not going to be any good in a Georgian style 8 over 8 with 20mm bars.
I notice on your linked info page the AGC fineo doesn`t have plugs so that might be better for my applications.
Its an interesting product and given its performance I wonder if it could be used in large structural glass applications, freeing up some design possibilities constrained by building regs and the overall thermal envelopes u value.
Maybe new build houses can go back to having decent sized windows instead of feeling like caves



Ollie