Push Blocks

[PAC1]

Jacob, as was said last time, if you think two push sticks is best practice let us know when HSE agrees. Until then the best practice in the UK remains
1 it is preferable not to use the planer on short pieces. Hand planing such short lengths or not making them short lengths is preferable
2. If you have to use the planer use a push block.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Well I've just bandaged up my finger - I poked it with a freshly-sharpened chisel (what a numpty!)... The causes were tiredness and not securing the workpiece properly. This was the same finger I attempted to foreshorten with my router a few years ago.

FWIW my P/T came supplied with a push-stick.

Stay safe!

Cheers, W2S

 

[sunnybob]

What I really, really cant understand, is why so many people try so hard to convince a man to change his mind, when the man in question is feeding and growing on the arguments.

I always thought that religion and politics were the only two subjects guaranteed to start a riot, now I know that it isnt the subjects, its the participants.

Long live Jacob, the funniest man around. (roflmfao)

 

[RogerS]

Well I've just bandaged up my finger - I poked it with a freshly-sharpened chisel (what a numpty!)... The causes were tiredness and not securing the workpiece properly. ......
.....
Cheers, W2S

Surely it was down to you not using two pushsticks with your chisel ?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, as was said last time, if you think two push sticks is best practice let us know when HSE agrees. Until then the best practice in the UK remains
1 it is preferable not to use the planer on short pieces. Hand planing such short lengths or not making them short lengths is preferable
2. If you have to use the planer use a push block.

That is a strict interpretation of a slightly badly written item.
But as everybody knows, rules and regulations can sometimes miss a trick.
I'm not an 'elf n safety gorn mad' advocate, not Brexit 'bonfire of the regulations', nor do I have a problem with building regs in principle, nor road traffic rules, etc etc.
But every now and then they get it slightly wrong.
Even you must have felt this on occasions - or do you always blindly accept every little instruction or detail without question?

NB and what I'm doing is actually safer than what the regs seem to require. I'm working to a higher level of safety and will continue to do so!

 

[PAC1]

What I really, really cant understand, is why so many people try so hard to convince a man to change his mind, when the man in question is feeding and growing on the arguments.

I always thought that religion and politics were the only two subjects guaranteed to start a riot, now I know that it isnt the subjects, its the participants.

Long live Jacob, the funniest man around. (roflmfao)

Bob it is not about trying to convince Jacob, I realised long ago that that was impossible. What I care about is other less experienced people thinking that just because Jacob will never shut up about his ideas he must be right. In particular, his theory that when it comes to two push sticks that the HSE have not properly considered what should be best practice or are a bit vague.
The problem is that people are buying these machines for their hobby but are not trained on the proper methods of work and so turn to the internet for advise. Where I did my apprenticeship in the 1970's out of 8 joiners there were two old boys who had lost most of their fingers on their left hands. The other six were much younger and 40 years later all six can still count to 10. The HSE guidance played no small part in that outcome.
I do not blindly follow the advice I look for best practice, I am not convinced that two push sticks are workable for short lengths of wood. The let it fly attitude to kickback may seem superficially Ok in a one man shop (as long as it does not come your way), in a multi user shop letting it fly could be lethal. In the Mancave what if the missus or the grandkids came in at that very moment.
As for Jacob we all know that he is a valuable member of this forum and the place is always much poorer when he gets banned, but there is a danger in letting him have the last word on something as important as safety.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A guy I know, a chippie by trade, was employed as a safety officer by one of the huge building firms. In the pub he had the urine extracted mercilessly until one day he brought in an album of horrific pictures of "accidents". After he'd passed it around a bar full of builders, chippies, sparkies and plumbers he made the point - every single one of them was easily prevented. There was no argument.
That said, people do the stupidest things - one of my friends, a time served retired mason came in one day with the flesh burned off his knees - from kneeling in wet concrete.

 

[sunnybob]

PAC1....
I agree, he is wrong. no question. That picture of two push sticks so far away from front of the wood where there should be downwards pressure to make the cut is a perfect example of how wrong.
But you can keep this thread going for a thousand years, and he will still not admit he's wrong. So, in my humble opinion, the simplest way out is to totally ignore the wrong advice after the first attempt to correct it, and then let the thread sink into oblivion as quickly as possible.

There will always be people who give wrong advice, there will always be people who refuse to listen.
And there will always be people like me, who sit on the sidelines slowly shaking their head.

By the way, my son, who has 20 years of carpentry and shopfitting, insults me constantly by calling me "Mr health and safety", so you are leaning against an open door with me.

 

[Jacob]

....The let it fly attitude to kickback may seem superficially Ok in a one man shop .....

Trying to stop a kick-back sometimes seems to be the cause of accidents - grabbing for the workpiece, holding it down more forcibly etc. Had a few close shaves myself and have learned to let it go, even if it wrecks the workpiece.
Kick back becomes a serious issue with bigger pieces on bigger machines.
Small machines not so risky - not enough power or mass to give the thing dangerous momentum.
With two exceptions - even a small TS blade without crown guard can pick up and sling a piece with some force, and offcuts can get caught between blade and fence and thrown out. I had one penetrating plaster board like a crossbow bolt. Another lesson learned!

 

[Jacob]

PAC1....
I agree, he is wrong. no question. That picture of two push sticks so far away from front of the wood where there should be downwards pressure to make the cut is a perfect example of how wrong.....

It's a mistake to deduce anything from the picture. That was taken in the process of making cuts, not posed, and in fact there is plenty of downwards pressure in spite of appearances. The notch transfers pressure according to how you hold it - you can put all your force into the nose and press down hard, or vary it to press in with the heel, or in between. As I keep saying - they are better than they look. Simple devices are easily over-looked. Compare the fussy grippers and push blocks on sale, these are much less useful than they look.

 

[SteveF]

I do not normally join in these heated discussions
is it time that the manufacturers changed the design of the machines
I dont own any but a design similar to the jessem stock guide roller thingies may stop all this
they would apply pressure in front of the knives and also stop potential kickback
why dont we use feather boards?
I no longer use my planer due to the fact it scares me
I am not saying we should retrofit our equipment but maybe something needs doing

Steve

 

[transatlantic]

So ...

Have any of the experienced users decided to try Jacobs push stick idea on the planer? ... come on! .. surely you're curious?

 

[transatlantic]

I do not normally join in these heated discussions
is it time that the manufacturers changed the design of the machines
I dont own any but a design similar to the jessem stock guide roller thingies may stop all this
they would apply pressure in front of the knives and also stop potential kickback
why dont we use feather boards?
I no longer use my planer due to the fact it scares me
I am not saying we should retrofit our equipment but maybe something needs doing

Steve

I don't think you can, unless your work piece is already flattish/squarish in the first place.

 

[John Brown]

i rwd spmrwhere thar if am arhumwnt lasts longet thsn 5 minures, boty sides art pronably wring.
p.s, two pish sticjs nor mich use fir typong/?

 

[Jacob]

I do not normally join in these heated discussions
is it time that the manufacturers changed the design of the machines
I dont own any but a design similar to the jessem stock guide roller thingies may stop all this
they would apply pressure in front of the knives and also stop potential kickback
why dont we use feather boards?
I no longer use my planer due to the fact it scares me
I am not saying we should retrofit our equipment but maybe something needs doing

Steve

Is this discussion heated? I'm not!

I use (home made) feather boards if there's a long run to do. Keeps the work steady and reduces risk of kickback.
The two times I've bought new (combi) machines they both came with a standard pattern push stick. Manufacturers are on the ball! Two would be better of course.

Kick-back is a hazard of course, though for me it would be the workpiece getting the unwanted cut, not myself. There are far more reports of accidental cuts rather than injuries from flying pieces of timber - kick back is less of a worry than getting a cut.

 

[Jacob]

So ...

Have any of the experienced users decided to try Jacobs push stick idea on the planer? ... come on! .. surely you're curious?

More than curiosity is involved here; anybody who hasn't tried it is not entitled to an opinion either way! Doesn't stop them blathering on though. :roll:

NB it does take a bit of a knack though - anybody trying it timidly for the first time will probably scare themselves sh*tless!
I'd suggest passing a large piece over the planer, say a 2' piece of 6x2", just using push sticks. As it gets smaller and thinner it gets more difficult to hold but you get the knack if you persist.

 

[OscarG]

.....

I use my hands but push blocks are very good and recommended by HSE, I never use push sticks and Jacob knows why.......

Yes I know why. It's because you have misread the HSE docs.
They make several useful suggestions about safety, which are not 'rules' but just helpful suggestions.
They don't recommend using push sticks in the way I describe. This has been mistakenly interpreted by Peter and many others, that they actually deprecate the use of push sticks. But this is not correct.
I blame the regulations for being vague and inadequate.
They don't recommend lots of things but this does not mean you should not do them, nor that you should only do what they do specifically recommend.
I'm quite happy to keep on recommending push sticks over planers as it's more than likely that a few fingers have been saved (if anybody takes any notice of anything I say!). I expect the regulations will catch up eventually - not least because I'm recommending a higher level of safety than the regs (or Peter) which is also cheap and very effective.

Jacob, thanks for your post, I'd like to try using the push sticks but I can't get my head round how you can hold down an item on an outfeed table using a stick, this is going to sound daft but is there anyway you get someone to take a few pics on how you use push sticks on say a planer?

 

[Jacob]

....
Jacob, thanks for your post, I'd like to try using the push sticks but I can't get my head round how you can hold down an item on an outfeed table using a stick, this is going to sound daft but is there anyway you get someone to take a few pics on how you use push sticks on say a planer?

I think if you bothered to try it you would get it quite quickly. On the other hand , perhaps not, some people are beyond help!

 

[memzey]

There's a pic of him doing so on page 3 of this topic. A video would probably useful as well.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The OP has requested this topic end now so I'm honouring the request.