power to garage and part P

[jlawrence]

Hi all,
The wife has just been tidying up the garden a bit and has found the cable which takes power out the the garage/workshop.
Now, I've no idea how long this cable has been in place but I'd guess at least 10 years. It's not armoured or even within a conduit - just clipped to the garden wall - and the bushes etc had completely grown over it. To the eye it looks like normal 2.5mm cable.
I've not located the other end (within the house) yet but I know it feeds a consumer unit within the garage so I'm guessing it's fed directly from the CU in the house (odds on I'm wrong though).
I would want to replace the cable with swa. From what I can gather replacement would be allowed under part P without notifying it would only be notifiable if it were a new circuit - which it ain't.
Am I reading the regs correctly ?

 

[RogerS]

I'm no expert but I think it is notifiable. Your best bet might be to ask on Askthetrades.co.uk

 

[head clansman]

hi

you sure your not supplying the rest of the street :wink: . better find the other end could be a live cable going nowhere , might be nasty . pull the fuse/breaker see what go's off .hc

 

[jlawrence]

Nah. I know where the live cable gets to the garage - 'tis that there white box on the wall .
Where it gets it's supply from in the house I've no idea.
If it feeds right back to the house CU I'd be surprised but not completely amazed. They seem to have done some things properly in this house and others are a complete bodge.
Power to the garage/shop is working fine at present, I'd just rather make it a bit safer now we've found the cable

 

[head clansman]

hi

do you have a electric cooker wall switch with a thirteen amp supply it was a favorite yrs ago to wire off the back of the switch inside the box .hc


PS or do you have an old electric immersion that not used anymore but is still live check the back of the switches

 

[jlawrence]

hmmm this gets interesting.
I've found a switch on the back wall of the kitchen that switches off ALL power to the garage.
Now I'm going to have to see where that that switch gets it's power from - everything is neatly hidden in the walls so it'll mean swtiching off the power and getting the meter out.
My bet is that it's connected into the kitchen ring.

 

[RogerS]

Just re-read a bit of the regs and maybe it isn't as it is a replacement. But, if challenged, how can you prove that it was a replacement and not a new circuit?

 

[jlawrence]

Now that's a good question.
My only arguement would be that the CU in the garage is over 10 years old thus it already existed.
Think I'll have a chat with a sparky - probably the easiest route.

For the time being it'll stay as it is, I'll get around to sorting it out at some date

 

[OLD]

My understanding is the spirit of the regs. is that diy could alter the design and protection and make it worse/dangerous. But maintenance that is like for like replacement is fine. So i would check its installed to the correct standard ,protection etc and replace like for like the like being 2.5 sq mm same or swa. Personally i would consider upgrading the size to cover future requirements but advice would be required on protection equipment etc.

 

[head clansman]

hi

check this switch for the size of cable supplying it, is it 2.5m cable or thicker , I'm no electrician but if it an old cooker supply box that may have been altered the cable will still be the old cooker cable it will be much thicker than 2.5 , ( i think it 6m not sure on that though )check the house cu fuses for and old cooker or immersion fused socket that may by now hase had it fuses down graded to 13 amp this end will still have the thicker cable as well .hc .

 

[jlawrence]

If I do replace it then it will be 4mm or 6mm swa.
The drop on 2.5mm is way too high.
If I was to have a quick guess I'd say the cable run was about 40m.

LOL @ the idea of making it worse/dangerous. I agree with the idea behind the regs, but to say that something installed in say 1990 is fine - even though it's bordering on dangerous - is pure ludicrous.

I've got non armoured cable running approx 40m around the garden, and I suspect not via it's own circuit. To incur additional costs (in terms of part P) to make it safe is crazy.

Will look at the back of the switch when I get chance.

 

[StevieB]

Erm, why would you be surprised if it feeds from the house CU - that is where it is supposed to feed from!

Part-P, grey area and up to you, personally I wouldn't tell the council anything about it. The vast majority of the general populace know nothing about part-p so let ignorance be your defence. Could argue its a replacement or could argue its a new circuit if it is not currently wired correctly. As to when it was rewired - cable colour is the only clue, which is why black and red 2.5mm fetches a fortune on e-bay still. Not sure if SWA colours changed or not.

2.5mm cable in the garden - very dodgy. Hedge trimmers, seceteurs, wind blows the fence over, rodent gnawing the cable, all reasons for immediate replacement.

If it does draw from a house circuit or the cooker directly then thats a no-no and needs to be changed asap, especially if you run a lot of things in your workshop.

My advice - replace asap and part-p is up to you. If you are competent and don't plan to move any time soon then DIY, if you are not competent/confident or plan to move soon then get a spark to do it and provide a cert. Not all sparks are part-p certified however so you may have to shop around. The hassle from getting a non-cert spark and the council to certify are not worth the effort IMHO.

Steve.

 

[jlawrence]

Well it will feed from the house CU eventually .
Looking at the CU I don't see any provision for it to be on a separate circuit. Nor do I see any provision for a cooker circuit. So my best guess at the moment is for it to be fed from the kitchen ring - yuk.
We're going to be doing up the kitchen at some point over the winter. That'll entail putting in a 32A cct for a new decent sized cooker which would be a suitable time to put the shop on it's own cct as well.
Until then I think I'll just replace the current wire with swa so at least it's a bit more difficult to chop up with the hedge trimmers.

swmbo still can't believe that someone would run non armoured cable that sort of distance.

edit:
By surprised I meant I'd be surprised if it were fed by it's own circuit.
I was lucky in my previous house in that I could run the swa straight into the house CU - would be a right pita to do in this one.

 

[Woody Alan]

personally I wouldn't tell the council anything about it. The vast majority of the general populace know nothing about part-p so let ignorance be your defence. Could argue its a replacement or could argue its a new circuit if it is not currently wired correctly.

I couldn't agree more. From experiences I've heard of the council really don't want to know about this sort of thing. My neighbour just weighed in with loads of new building work without planning permission, including loads of decking with tasteless lighting which he installed himself. It was hard enough to get the council to take notice of the planning infringements, plural, when they did react and sent several inspectors round they didn't take a blind bit of notice of his wiring arrangements and I think that's pretty common. he got full retrospective planning permission including his three satellite dishes good to know they are acting for the benefit of all.

Alan

 

[StevieB]

Lucky you, Swale borough council where I am are complete barstewards and seem to deliberately go out of their way to make getting planning for anything as difficult as possible. I am currently trying to get permission to replace a 3ft high front garden wall. Application in limbo because they want an access statement describing how it will affect the public highway?! wtf? Its a 3 ft garden wall, replacing a badly damaged existing 3ft garden wall. How does that affect the public highway in any way shape or form? All I want to do is rebuild an existing structure.

And calm......

Steve.

 

[Woody Alan]

Firstly I Fail to see how I am lucky...
Secondly the same bunch of ***** ****** ******** and ***** refused me planning permission to match my garage extension to my neighbours (yes the same a**** ) because it didn't "fit in with the street scene " yet just around the corner the council themselves want to change a 1960's police station in the style of a couple of semis into one of these blasted designer wood clad stainless monstrosities that are so prevalent ..but somehow that's OK with the "street scene" .I'm sorry but I have no time for the self serving ***** in any level of power any more. Cynicism aside I think they are all on the take. My neighbour outright said money can buy him anything! and I have to believe he is right ...the ****

Alan