Please teach me about planes

[D_W]

That's all well and good, I wouldn't want to do this for many reasons
Even for small stuff difficult to film even, I'd sooner cut to the chase rather than film
the rest.
We can't all be like George, be interesting to know what he would say would be the most challenging aspect of the craft, though this is likely for another topic.

Tom

I can guess on his behalf - having the time in life to make and do all of the things that are in your head as a maker. I didn't make that up, he often expresses that - he's over 80, he spent his days for a large part of his career making things in front of the public at wmsbg and negotiated his way into working out of view and then spent his evenings and weekends also working professionally with things he's made spread all over the place from musical instruments showing up on TV in the US played by people he's never met, to dueling pistols ending up in the hands of the duponts, etc. He must've worked 80 hours a week. And his head is still full of things he wants to do, but he can't work 16 hours a day.

George is an odd example because he is able to independently imagine, design, draw, execute, gather information, research what he's doing - every single part of making, and do all of them well. Including follow on work like aging to the point that he could defraud curators if he felt like it by hiding refurbishing (but he is 100% opposed to anything like that). He is also brilliant, able to grasp what you're telling him outside of his context and then give superb advice - he can do it at over 80 and I can't do it at 45.

As far as seeing other work, I've heard him say less than flowery things about people who are bad designers and who refuse design advice thinking that anything is fair game, as well as people who aren't fine workers posing as such and taking money for it and being arrogant at the same time.

What's unusual about him vs. most other people is that his eye and enormous depth and broad skill reach makes it so that anything that he makes functions and looks great, first try and he can work at extremely precise levels with either machine or by hand.

 

[Ttrees]

@D_W Some journeyman should go visit George sometime, seems a wealth of information one could even glean from looking around the place.

@Jacob maybe I'll try finding something which will suit.

 

[D_W]

@D_W Some journeyman should go visit George sometime, seems a wealth of information one could even glean from looking around the place.

@Jacob maybe I'll try finding something which will suit.

if someone were interested in documenting the work that he did and having him explain it, it could be hours of indexed interesting information. I don't know if he would care to do anything like that, but he still works with makers on a regular basis, he just doesn't do a big menu of work himself. He doesn't work with beginners or amateurs, though, unless they are on their way to being pros.

What's maybe beyond the scope of this forum is if you asked him "how can I make a stain that looks good and is lightfast", he's your guy.

"I want to cook varnish from raw ingredients, do you have any thoughts" he's your guy.

"I want to make a plane lever cap that doesn't look crude and that has acme threads", he's your guy - the latter involves making an acme tap and die, and probably making a knurling tool rather than buying a canned one, which .....he's your guy for that, too.

"I have a design that I sketched, I think it's OK but something doesn't quite look right, can you look at it"...again, he'll be able to help you fix it and it will be obvious even to an untrained eye that the revisions look better.

that list could be 10,000 things long. It can only really be explained by someone who did nothing but make for 60 years, and there are certainly people like that. We don't usually get access to them because teaching would get in the way of making and it's usually in context.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I love these threads!

In the States, you’ll find people idolized because they have made themselves an internet personality, with fanboys flocking to them, deserved or not. George Wilson is a bonifide craftsman, but he didn’t suffer any fools. There is much at Colonial Williamsburg directly attributed to him, and I’m not referring to a simple table, etc.

The fact of the matter is, UK forums seem to be populated more with experienced craftspeople, and that might explain why we sometimes all insist our was is the correct way! Not many fanboys across the pond!

 

[WideningGyre]

It is possible that given the history of fine cabinetmaking in England, that the forum might be a little weary of hearing about "George" whenever the subject of planing comes up?

If he is a premier maker in the States, then by all means post some of his work or links to it. Let's see how it stacks up against what England has to offer. If he's predominately an instrument maker, there are other forums/subforums that cater to that branch of woodworking. People there are in a better position to critique or celebrate that kind of craftsmanship. The YoutTube harpsichord video of "George" seemed to show a relatively crude instrument by European standards of the day. This makes sense, since he was reproducing a colonial instrument. If he had a business making harpsichords outside of Williamsburg, let's hear about it.

Here are some currently practicing harpsichord makers for comparison.

http://www.gselfharpsichords.com/
https://www.robertsonharpsichords.com/
https://bomharpsichords.com/en
http://richardkingstonharpsichords.com/index.html
Where might we see George's harpsichords?

 

[Adam W.]

It's shocking that you don't belong to the cult of George, whoever he is.

 

[D_W]

It is possible that given the history of fine cabinetmaking in England, that the forum might be a little weary of hearing about "George" whenever the subject of planing comes up?

If he is a premier maker in the States, then by all means post some of his work or links to it. Let's see how it stacks up against what England has to offer. If he's predominately an instrument maker, there are other forums/subforums that cater to that branch of woodworking. People there are in a better position to critique or celebrate that kind of craftsmanship.

Is this a forum for woodworking or cabinetmaking? the instrument page posted was from 1996, and offers some display of his work on guitars, but they are a tiny slice of what he did. What he did relay at one point is that he made a few pieces of furniture and founding boring. To be honest, I find furniture a little boring, too, other than some of the 18th century style stuff that i'd have to toss instrument making, toolmaking, aside for and just focus on and then have no use for.

For years, George made the harpsichords and stringed instruments and probably all instruments at WMSBG. After that, he was the toolmaker, at one point making the bases for the PGA tournament trophies (I think they found a lower bid, not sure), and he reconditioned machine tools.

Unfortunately, most of what he posted online was posted in sawmillcreek, which you have to register for to see pictures of. You can find it there.

I mention him because he's a fine maker - the world of fine makers generally doesn't include teachers, but the internet creates the illusion that fine making is represented more or less by internet marketers or folks catering to beginners. you can learn a lot more about making from a fine maker, but they may not be appropriate for beginners. Eventually, one has to get past the ceiling of the Sellers types, and if you're serious, it will happen quickly. If not, you can wade around in the shallow end of the pool for decades and maybe not know that you're in the shallow end in the first place.

Custard was the last cabinetmaker I can think of who was actually using hand tools a lot here. I'm not a cabinetmaker. I am not a professional toolmaker, but I can make fine tools and use them.

We discuss george a lot because he is a maker in the same sense that lynton mackenzie was an engraver, same caliber. the same as mack headley was (still probably is less than full time) a cabinetmaker and peter ross is a blacksmith. And he was accessible to us, he is still accessible to some of us.

George was the only person I can remember who pushed my tiller and even though I am not broad as a maker, I am deep as a toolmaker with certain tools because he could not only tell me that there was more, but he could tell me why and how. I think some part of the forums is dying to bust out of making step stools and mallets and mutilating saw handles, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[WideningGyre]

Yes, we've heard all of this. Many times.

At this point, I'm doubtful George was ever considered a premier maker of anything. His name with regard to harpsichords only comes up in relation to Williamsburg and perhaps the single instrument in the YouTube video. As far as guitars are concerned, very little presents itself either. Furniture -- nothing.

Where is the objective information on him as a maker? Awards? Accolades? Anything other than a smidgen here or there along with the anecdotes you've provided?

You believe him to be the equal of other fine craftsmen. Does anybody else share the same opinion? Somebody in a position to make that sort of objective comparison? Have you seen a single thing he's made in person? Did you photograph it? Can we see it?

 

[D_W]

here's an example of a one-off that he made. If you read what he describes as a maker, you can get a sense for the depth. there's more out there than just furniture. Furniture is nice, but few people are interested in expensive furniture these days and the forums give an idea that it's mostly what's there. Furniture and turning vessels, because that's what can get people to spend money as beginners.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-surveyors-compass-i-made-for-david-brinkley.16980/
This compass is something that deserves to be seen close up, but maybe the level of work and tidiness may not be recognizable to beginners.

the instruments are one branch of the tree, there is this branch (the ability to make something like this), and there must be 15 other branches.

Very little of the work and the level of it, especially from scratch and doing the work of a whole bunch of trades in one piece...isn't really accessible work. the thought process and his advice was accessible and applicable, though.

you can see him making a harpsichord elsewhere in this thread or another one, which is more or less cabinetmaking and instrument making combined. the only thing about that is folks may not love the narrators sentiment (that I appreciate), that the dovetails are on the back of the case and hidden, nobody really wants to see them.

 

[Jacob]

My son is called George.
Nothing to do with yer man, just an amazing coincidence!
Had an Uncle George once. I know somebody who called their dog George.

 

[raffo]

It is possible that given the history of fine cabinetmaking in England, that the forum might be a little weary of hearing about "George" whenever the subject of planing comes up?

What is this, some kind of nationalistic competition? Would it be ok for you if an English, not a Scott or Irish, cabinet maker were offered as a reference?

 

[D_W]

My son is called George.
Nothing to do with yer man, just an amazing coincidence!
Had an Uncle George once. I know somebody who called their dog George.

I had a grandfather and uncle george. I don't think there are too many "new georges" these days, but would bet there are plenty of pets being named george.

Sadie used to be a person's name, too, but is now generally dogs. Well, who knows these days - people are starting to wear leg warmers again.

I did ask George at one point if George Wilson was an English name, but have to admit I forgot his answer. My lineage is pretty much German and Swiss with little bits of Amish and Jewish in there - not sure how such an English name ever ended up in the family.

Come to think of it, I think the neighbor in dennis the menace was "george wilson". It's also a concrete supplier down the road from me.

I don't know if they do fine concrete...I think they specialize in site work.

 

[WideningGyre]

What is this, some kind of nationalistic competition? Would it be ok for you if an English, not a Scott or Irish, cabinet maker were offered as a reference?

Actually, yes, it would - at least for purposes of comparison. The point is "George" doesn't seem to have achieved much if any notoriety in his own country, so why would a UK forum be that particularly interested in him, especially when he's constantly insinuated into these conversations as if he should be held in great reverence, just because somebody says so? Against whom, Chippendale? Sheraton? Seddon? Peters? It would take me hours to list all the rest.

 

[WideningGyre]

here's an example of a one-off that he made. If you read what he describes as a maker, you can get a sense for the depth. there's more out there than just furniture. Furniture is nice, but few people are interested in expensive furniture these days and the forums give an idea that it's mostly what's there. Furniture and turning vessels, because that's what can get people to spend money as beginners.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/a-surveyors-compass-i-made-for-david-brinkley.16980/
This compass is something that deserves to be seen close up, but maybe the level of work and tidiness may not be recognizable to beginners.

the instruments are one branch of the tree, there is this branch (the ability to make something like this), and there must be 15 other branches.

Very little of the work and the level of it, especially from scratch and doing the work of a whole bunch of trades in one piece...isn't really accessible work. the thought process and his advice was accessible and applicable, though.

you can see him making a harpsichord elsewhere in this thread or another one, which is more or less cabinetmaking and instrument making combined. the only thing about that is folks may not love the narrators sentiment (that I appreciate), that the dovetails are on the back of the case and hidden, nobody really wants to see them.

Unless George hand planed the surveyor's compass, what does it have to do with woodwork? It looks great, but it's not relevant to this forum. Harpsichords and guitars at least have wood involved.

 

[D_W]

Yes, we've heard all of this. Many times.

At this point, I'm doubtful George was ever considered a premier maker of anything. His name with regard to harpsichords only comes up in relation to Williamsburg and perhaps the single instrument in the YouTube video. As far as guitars are concerned, very little presents itself either. Furniture -- nothing.

Where is the objective information on him as a maker? Awards? Accolades? Anything other than a smidgen here or there along with the anecdotes you've provided?

You believe him to be the equal of other fine craftsmen. Does anybody else share the same opinion? Somebody in a position to make that sort of objective comparison? Have you seen a single thing he's made in person? Did you photograph it? Can we see it?

Theres' a cruddy old guitar on reverb that he made. Even though it in pretty poor shape and also inaccurately described by the seller, it sold for $8000.

You won't generally find one-man custom makers in the US showing up as "maker to the stars".

There was a famous guitarist named Sabicasz or something of that sort who often was given guitars, and sent them back. When he died, he had been traveling playing with two guitars, flamenco type. His kids then did something along the lines of traveling with his spread, and one of the two guitars that he used for live performances after refusing to take a bunch of guitars from famous makers was had made individually by George. At least one of his instruments is shown being played on a prime time TV show in the US by a professional player, and an enormous number of his violins are being used in symphonies on the east coast of the US - full time symphonies, not like community.

How much better your work has to be than that, I don't know.

The guitar on youtube is one that he finished the body on and the guy playing it was someone he knew, moved away and had someone local finish it. it looks kind of nondescript. Even the one on reverb, he referred to as "pretty plain" ($8k).

it's kind of hard if you're that good at making to want to make a consumer widely circulated guitar or head a shop making bread and butter stuff day to day.

 

[D_W]

Unless George hand planed the surveyor's compass, what does it have to do with woodwork? It looks great, but it's not relevant to this forum. Harpsichords and guitars at least have wood involved.

You asked what he made, that's an example. you can search google if you want to find more by looking for "george wilson, williamsburg". I guess what's followed is "I doubt he was that great" and then now "well, that's not what I want to see". I think it's on you to find more at this point.

The original fluffing that started with this when you point out that Paul Sellers has a 40 year business finding students. He's not a fine maker. George is a fine maker. if you want to see another example, look up John Laubach or Mack Headley (Headley was the master cabinetmaker at Williamsburg). They may be more to your taste. I don't think they would know who paul sellers is, let alone any of the critics on here.

I'm lucky to know who george is - he'd never know me by my work unless I managed to slip a set of chisels into the hands of a cabinetmaker at williamsburg and he was on site - not something I intend to try.

here is headley's site (a separate business that he and his sons run). Notice how easy it is to find the portfolio compared to sellers and other teachers.
http://www.headleyandsons.com/furniture/chests.html#null

 

[thetyreman]

sellers has made a cello, and his son is a full-time violin maker, all of his sons are craftsmen, he mentions this in blogs, don't think he'd lie about it, there would be nothing to gain, how is wilson superior to him in any way? genuine question and I've no doubt george is highly skilled.

 

[D_W]

sellers has made a cello, and his son is a full-time violin maker, all of his sons are craftsmen, he mentions this in blogs, don't think he'd lie about it, there would be nothing to gain, how is wilson superior to him in any way? genuine question and I've no doubt george is highly skilled.

George is a broader and deeper (finer, more accomplished) maker in every way. Didn't "make a cello" but made a gaggle of stringed instruments in use in professional symphonies that people bought from the instrument shop based on how they sounded, not who the maker is.

I think probably a good bar for people is to get to the point that you can see the difference between what paul is doing and if you like furniture, that vs. mack headley.

if you ultimately like the kind of things that paul teaches, then you do that anyway, it's your choice. I love fine guitars, but I don't think i have interest in making them. I can recognize the high end work, though, and tell the difference between one that's fine and one that's just dressed up.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

All this recent bickering and 'Who's George?' stuff, and 'George is this' is starting to get tiresome. Slainte.

 

[D_W]

All this recent bickering and 'Who's George?' stuff, and 'George is this' is starting to get tiresome. Slainte.

Well, offer up an English fine maker. We don't know who they are here in the states. I don't, at least. by that, I mean like someone who is so consumed and doing so much intensive work that they're pretty much booked by business that finds them and not seeking students or writing articles or books.

that makes them hard to find.

I used George for an example because until he fully retired, the work found him. I don't think he ever had a site other than being profiled. I vividly recalled the period where he was getting his last full time orders done because he didn't have the energy to work full time in his late 70s. It wasn't that long ago.

I wonder if there's some sentiment because the work isn't done in England, it's not fine work.

Too with this, the thread started asking about hand planes. Realistically, who has more depth here combined making and using them than I do? It doesn't seem to matter, does it. It's kind of expected.