Talk about rip-off Britain.

[ey_tony]

My firearm and shotgun certificates are due for their 5 year renewal at the end of next month and according the local police website processing can take up to two weeks so today I thought I'd better get my skates on and pop down to my local doctor's surgery and hand in the forms which can be downloaded from the local police force's web site and ask for one of the doctors at my practice to sign the forms indicating that I have no health issues, either mental or physical which would exclude me for continuing firearm possession. I know I have absolutely no issues which would preclude me from gun ownership so pretty straight forward really.

It used to be that I simply filled in a form which included the names of two referees and the name of my doctor and the practice at which he worked and I presume they made a call to the practice but whatever happened, I paid a fixed fee (£65.00 I believe) for the joint (coterminous) renewal of both my shotgun and firearm certificates and nothing more was heard until a local police officer delivered the new certificate and checked the gun serial numbers I own and where I stored them.

The process has now gone online which they claim is to save money so it requires the applicant to download the relevant forms and have them signed by one's doctor which should take in essence a few minutes at most but for this simple service I was told by the receptionist that I had to pay £110.00 up front. I expected to pay a fair fee for the simple service but £110.00, c'mon it's a rip off.

I was also informed by the receptionist that as the doctors were so busy with private work it could take up to 30 days before I would receive the completed forms. That could mean me being late with my application which in turn would require me to store the guns at the firearm club of which I've been a member for 35 years. Not a real hardship but just another issue that need not arise. I realise that with living in a rural area there are bound to be higher numbers of firearm/shotgun applications than other areas so maybe that's why it's so difficult to get a doctor's appointment these days...they're too busy making money filling out forms.

I don't use my guns for any form of killing and it's only paper targets at which I shoot so to be honest I think it's like everything else in the UK just another rip off where they milk every penny from you that they can.

 

[adidat]

Somerset and Avon quoted 14 months to a friend for a new application....

Adidat

 

[Noel]

My firearm and shotgun certificates are due for their 5 year renewal at the end of next month and according the local police website processing can take up to two weeks so today I thought I'd better get my skates on and pop down to my local doctor's surgery and hand in the forms which can be downloaded from the local police force's web site and ask for one of the doctors at my practice to sign the forms indicating that I have no health issues, either mental or physical which would exclude me for continuing firearm possession. I know I have absolutely no issues which would preclude me from gun ownership so pretty straight forward really.

It used to be that I simply filled in a form which included the names of two referees and the name of my doctor and the practice at which he worked and I presume they made a call to the practice but whatever happened, I paid a fixed fee (£65.00 I believe) for the joint (coterminous) renewal of both my shotgun and firearm certificates and nothing more was heard until a local police officer delivered the new certificate and checked the gun serial numbers I own and where I stored them.

The process has now gone online which they claim is to save money so it requires the applicant to download the relevant forms and have them signed by one's doctor which should take in essence a few minutes at most but for this simple service I was told by the receptionist that I had to pay £110.00 up front. I expected to pay a fair fee for the simple service but £110.00, c'mon it's a rip off.

I was also informed by the receptionist that as the doctors were so busy with private work it could take up to 30 days before I would receive the completed forms. That could mean me being late with my application which in turn would require me to store the guns at the firearm club of which I've been a member for 35 years. Not a real hardship but just another issue that need not arise. I realise that with living in a rural area there are bound to be higher numbers of firearm/shotgun applications than other areas so maybe that's why it's so difficult to get a doctor's appointment these days...they're too busy making money filling out forms.

I don't use my guns for any form of killing and it's only paper targets at which I shoot so to be honest I think it's like everything else in the UK just another rip off where they milk every penny from you that they can.

They let you have guns Tony? Actual real ones?

: )

 

[ey_tony]

They let you have guns Tony? Actual real ones?

: )

Yes very real ones Noel.. why shouldn't I? After all those in charge of licencing are not motivated by someone's political leaning or their own bias when making decisions.

 

[ey_tony]

Somerset and Avon quoted 14 months to a friend for a new application....

Adidat

I know that new applications have always taken quite a while wherever you live but renewals have always been fairly quick. If I had the doctor's report to send in with my application I could have my renewed licences in my hands within two weeks.
It sounds like the doctor's report will hold things up judging by the receptionist's comment. By the looks of it it's a nice little earner for doctors if they're so busy with it. They don't even have to comment on someone's suitability to own firearms, they only have to verify whether or not someone has health issues ( mental or physical) which would make their gun ownership unsafe.
It's the police's responsibility to judge whether someone is suitable to own guns.

 

[Sideways]

When did they bring in the doctor's reference on renewal ? I'm sure that it used only to need your referees to renew.

I did visit a Doctor in Paris many years ago as part of the application to a club over there. He actually conducted a sensible physical examination relevant to the sport so you felt like you received something for the (quite reasonable) consultation fee.

 

[ey_tony]

When did they bring in the doctor's reference on renewal ? I'm sure that it used only to need your referees to renew.

I did visit a Doctor in Paris many years ago as part of the application to a club over there. He actually conducted a sensible physical examination relevant to the sport so you felt like you received something for the (quite reasonable) consultation fee.

It's almost 5 years since I last renewed my licence under the old system but from what I can gather the new online application system including the doctor's reference was introduced in the last 12 months.
The firearms club of which I've been a member since around 1990 must report anyone who doesn't have a set minimum number of visits annually. I don't shoot over land as I don't enjoy killing birds or animals so I have to be a member of a suitable club in order to maintain my firearms and shotgun licences.

I have several guns including a centrefire Winchester 94 underlever rifle which you see in every cowboy film. I used to own a full range of handguns from .22 rimfire to .357 & .44 magnums before they were banned.

These days I quite enjoy shooting at targets with air pistols at 50 metres...not quite as lively as a .357 or .44 but an awful lot cheaper to run and just as much fun.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... now gone online which they claim is to save money so it requires the applicant to download the relevant forms and have them signed by one's doctor which should take in essence a few minutes at most ....

Download the necessary forms, print them, fill in whatever you might need to, if anything, get a doctor's appointment for a perhaps trifling condition, see doc about your, ahem, illness, then say, "Oh, by the by could you just sign this form for me whilst I'm here, ta much." Slainte.

 

[ey_tony]

Download the necessary forms, print them, fill in whatever you might need to, if anything, get a doctor's appointment for a perhaps trifling condition, see doc about your, ahem, illness, then say, "Oh, by the by could you just sign this form for me whilst I'm here, ta much." Slainte.

I did think about doing that though I thought I'd do it the correct way but after paying £110.00 for what is effectively the doctor's signature, I'd wished I had done it.

 

[Mickjay]

I did think about doing that though I thought I'd do it the correct way but after paying £110.00 for what is effectively the doctor's signature, I'd wished I had done it.

If it was anything like around here, you would be waiting at least 3 weeks for the appointment :-(

 

[Cabinetman]

It's almost 5 years since I last renewed my licence under the old system but from what I can gather the new online application system including the doctor's reference was introduced in the last 12 months.
The firearms club of which I've been a member since around 1990 must report anyone who doesn't have a set minimum number of visits annually. I don't shoot over land as I don't enjoy killing birds or animals so I have to be a member of a suitable club in order to maintain my firearms and shotgun licences.

I have several guns including a centrefire Winchester 94 underlever rifle which you see in every cowboy film. I used to own a full range of handguns from .22 rimfire to .357 & .44 magnums before they were banned.

These days I quite enjoy shooting at targets with air pistols at 50 metres...not quite as lively as a .357 or .44 but an awful lot cheaper to run and just as much fun.

Oh yes a Magnum! I held one the other day, (didn’t fire it) and I couldn’t believe how heavy and large it was, how Clint Eastwood’s character was meant to carry it around all day without straining something is a mystery.
Ian

 

[ey_tony]

Oh yes a Magnum! I held one the other day, (didn’t fire it) and I couldn’t believe how heavy and large it was, how Clint Eastwood’s character was meant to carry it around all day without straining something is a mystery.
Ian

I had a couple of .44s but my all time favourite sidearm was my Smith & Wesson Model 28 N-frame .357 chambered Highway Patrolman fitted with a 6" barrel and Pachmayr grips. It was originally owned by a gunsmith and had a superb 2lb trigger pull and was an absolute dream to shoot. Back then I had very steady hands and used to single hand it at 50 metres as it was so well balanced and accurate. It almost broke my heart having to surrender it when they were banned.

Those 'Dirty Harry' S&W 44 model 29 magnums were huge. I had one and it's big..I also owned the more modern (at the time) Model 29 .44 magnum Classic with the full underlug and 5" barrel ...that was very heavy but didn't have it long before I had to surrender it.
If anyone has ever been in the vicinity of a 44 magnum when it's fired in say a room, then unless they were wearing ear defenders they wouldn't be able hear for days...the pressure waves are so intense.

I used to load my own bullets and with .44 calibre I used to load them to .44 Special rather than full magnum load as at magnum level they were quite uncomfortable to shoot and nothing like what it was in the movies.
I remember buying some commercial IMI .44 full magnum ammunition and after shooting 12 rounds your hands were aching. After that I just loaded to .44 special and that was enough.

 

[AJB Temple]

It's not a rip off. The police are putting the onus and in effect liability on the doctor to state that you are not a nutcase. The doctor has to be certain that there is nothing in your medical history that crosses the boundary of the list of conditions. It's not therefore just a simple decision and the practice has to keep a record of the checks they have done. Some doctors refuse to take the risk.

 

[Thedog]

Lucky you don't need a 10 minute medical check. Blood pressure, height, weight and check you have a pulse. That would cost 250+ down this way. And it may have gone up since I last needed one.

 

[nickds1]

It's not a rip off. The police are putting the onus and in effect liability on the doctor to state that you are not a nutcase. The doctor has to be certain that there is nothing in your medical history that crosses the boundary of the list of conditions. It's not therefore just a simple decision and the practice has to keep a record of the checks they have done. Some doctors refuse to take the risk.

This is absolutely the case. The doctor has a legal responsibility to state whether there is anything in your medical record that might preclude being granted a part 1 or part 2 certificate either for the first time or renewal. In addition, if you are license holder, that is flagged in your records. If anything untoward were to happen to you to change their view as to your safety, they have to inform the police.

It's not a rip off. It's a huge responsibility and if the doctor gets it wrong, they catch a load of flak. It's not just a signature - it's way more than that - detailed record checks and possibly liability insurance with an ongoing requirement to report any risks.

As stated, many doctors now don't want the responsibility at any price.

It'd be nice if people thought things through a bit before they start grumbling about stuff and publicly slagging off the medical profession. It's a tough enough job as it is.

Note: for completeness I should state that I have been a range safety officer, pistol club secretary and have had both shotgun & firearms certificates for well over 40 years. I've also owned and used a huge variety of firearms. My mother was a national level shot so I was bought up with it.

There's a reason why astonishingly few crimes are committed by certificate holders - the checks are rigorous and I for one am glad of that. Processes are not perfect and people are by definition, human. It's difficult to legislate against nutters, so every few years someone with an FAC does something, but it's very very rare. Lessons get learned and processes improved.

510,000 individuals in England and Wales hold one or both of a firearms or shotgun certificate. Very few commit crimes of sny sort compared with the general population.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...es-england-and-wales-april-2023-to-march-2024

 

[skeetstar]

Go to Shootcert, they do it for 65ukp, and your doctor gets nothing but is legally obliged to supply them the requisite info.
Doctors are not asked for opinions, they are simply asked for facts, I think the system imposes nil risk on doctors if they do all that is required, ..but I don't think that has been tested in court,
Lastly leaving you have left it far too late, even for renewals I think the police recommend 8 weeks in advance. My last one was three months before the termination date.. but the FLO performance was absolutely stellar and I got my new cert turn around in less than 48 hours.

 

[Puggers]

I hear you @ey_tony and would add that the potential challenge that some GPs might create for ticket holders is a wider and rising cry of concern across most regions to the extent that I understand that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC) are trying to get some consistency in approach. Sadly, due to many aspects out of their control they've been unable to achieve country-wide consistencies across the police firearm licensing teams despite years of effort and so I suspect engaging Drs will be like herding an even bigger group of cats.

I was a shooter for many, many years; competitions, firearm instruction and range safety courses, etc, etc both home and abroad and it was a huge part of my life until I decided not to renew my tickets and walked away.

It remains, that in my experience you are lucky enough to be within the most efficient and pragmatic licensing forces in the UK, but I appreciate that this isn't really your point and I agree that the randomness of charges made by GPs for this service and at what speed they react to the request is a potential concern. I'm aware that some GPs react immediately and some, I'm told haven't charged and don't intend doing so.

That in itself will boil one ticket holder's p**s whilst another, potentially in the same club, will be happy as Larry. It's bonkers!

That said, like any other service, private or public, surely the GP is bound by service level agreements, even if they see this work as an extra burden on them. We know how busy surgeries are and to lump something else on for them to manage won't be welcomed so charging perhaps isn't unreasonable. However, would someone awaiting a prescription accept being fobbed off until the GP gets around to it? Unlikely and perhaps not a great example, but you'll take my point and there's just as much onus on the licence holder to be proactive when the renewal is due.

My understanding is that the GP is also required to log on your records that you're a firearms owner and that if you come to them with an illness (physical or mental) or one which could develop into something they believe might affect your ability to safely own and use a firearm/shotgun, they have to inform the police who then will be compelled to do something - whatever that might be. This was part of the feedback and outcry from the recent shooting in the SW (sorry, I can't recall exactly where and I might be off in terms of location) where the communication and response between GP and police was said to have failed.

Imagine though how many ticket holders are going to argue that they've been reported for matters which they believe to be minor or are short-term and the responses that will cause. That said, equally imagine if a GP didn't report a matter and the potential outcry if something happened - matters will simply become more Draconian than many think they already are. Clearly, a GP is in a more important position than simply ar*e-covering as it's a huge responsibility for them.

At a club I belonged to when I lived further south, it was the responsibility of all to keep an eye on each other to ensure safe practice of course, but beyond that if a Committee member found out that a 'significant event' had occurred in a shooter's life (including divorce, loss of job, death of a family member, etc.) the local force expected to be told about it so they could pay a visit....

For whatever my opinion is worth, I believe that the online renewals, reporting of the purchase and sale of firearms plus other general admin' definitely adds benefit, but until there's consistency in all aspects of the processes in terms of approach, costs and timescales you're arguably at the mercy of where you happen to live.

 

[ey_tony]

It's not a rip off. The police are putting the onus and in effect liability on the doctor to state that you are not a nutcase. The doctor has to be certain that there is nothing in your medical history that crosses the boundary of the list of conditions. It's not therefore just a simple decision and the practice has to keep a record of the checks they have done. Some doctors refuse to take the risk.

Wrong I'm afraid.
Extracts from one of the forms that I and the doctor have to sign, which in my case in the following gives my consent to the doctor sharing sensitive data with the police.

Extract 1. Please note that the police are not seeking your opinion on my suitability to hold a firearm certificate, as their responsibility for this decision lies with the police. They require only a factual response, from a suitably qualified GMC-registered doctor* based on my medical record.

Extract 2. Information requested from a GMC-registered doctorIf there is a history of any of the relevant medical conditions listed, please can the response include the following:1. Name of medical condition2. Duration of medical condition3. Medication prescribed. Please note that only information about any relevant medical condition(s) should be provided
...............

If I suffer from any of the nine conditions which might preclude me from renewal that are listed on the form, the doctor has to tick a box and if they do, go on to explain treatment, duration etc and how it might affect me as an applicant but it is up to the police and NOT the doctor who decides my suitability to possess a firearm as they the doctor themselves may be prejudiced regarding gun ownership, though if I suffered from one of the conditions which could affect my application the doctor must disclose it.

In my numerous other previous applications/renewals over the years I would assume that the above checks were still carried out but now the government has found yet another way of raising money as the renewal fees alone should cover the costs.

 

[ey_tony]

Go to Shootcert, they do it for 65ukp, and your doctor gets nothing but is legally obliged to supply them the requisite info.
Doctors are not asked for opinions, they are simply asked for facts, I think the system imposes nil risk on doctors if they do all that is required, ..but I don't think that has been tested in court,
Lastly leaving you have left it far too late, even for renewals I think the police recommend 8 weeks in advance. My last one was three months before the termination date.. but the FLO performance was absolutely stellar and I got my new cert turn around in less than 48 hours.

According to the blurb the police have on their web site regarding firearm certificate renewal, I should allow two weeks to ensure renewal before my old licence expiry so 5 weeks should be more than ample if that is the case.

In the event of the renewal being delayed I may be required to lodge my guns with the gun club until I receive my renewed certificates so that in itself is not an issue but they should inform the applicant of the potential delays due to doctor's administration times in their area.

 

[Blackswanwood]

In my numerous other previous applications/renewals over the years I would assume that the above checks were still carried out but now the government has found yet another way of raising money as the renewal fees alone should cover the costs

The Home Office updated the requirements in 2021 (so not one you can blame on the current government Tony).

In any case fees are set by your GP Practice, not the government. It's an administrative burden for them and I expect all they are doing is passing the cost on to gun owners rather than allowing it to be subsidised by the funds they receive from the NHS.