Planes....a compromise?

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NeilO

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Would love to own LN`s or Veritas, but cant really justify the price (being a hobbyist, family man ,and mortgage payer :lol: ) but neither do I want "shed" brought mosh (you know the stuff Im talking about)

I currently own a Faithfull No4 and block plane ( bought 2 crimbos ago by SWMBO ) and a stanley bench, a No130, and an Anant bench plane ( family giveaways)

the Faithfulls are nice to use now ,after hours of fettling,but the others are old doorstops till I get a chance to fettle them.

so,any advice on not paying huge amounts of dosh,but not buying "shed" rubbish....
 
I'd say go for older second hand planes. (old stanleys etc)
They're generally of good quality, and cheaper than the LNs
 
Neil

Funny you should post at this time - i've just been playing with my planes!

I've got (amongst others :oops: ) a Clifton #7, Veritas LA Jack and a 1920's Corrugated Stanley #6 with a Samurai blade and Clifton Cap Iron. Each has just had a freshly sharpened blade, and I can't believe how well the Stanley holds its own compared to the other two. I'd say as good as the LAJ and 95% of the performance of the Clifton. Of course, the Stanley is in superb nick, has a nice flat sole etc.

I'd suggest looking for a nice old plane, pre-war, and sticking a new blade in it.

Cheers

Karl
 
Assuming the sole is flat etc I find the only problem with the Stanley planes is the iron.
Now a days they are made of hardened and tempered carbon steel, whereas the irons of the 19c wooden planes all seem to be superior in their ability to take an edge, so I use them.

Roy.
 
A smoothing plane (#3 - #4) is optional - fine sandpaper and a scrap of wood for a sandpaper block will do at a push - it's not as nice, but it'll do fine. When you get one, make sure it's the best, sharpest, flatest, shiniest plane in your arsenal, then keep it in a glass display cabinet and only use it at christmas and while wearing your best suit.

A try plane (#7 - #8) is your ticket to square and true needs to be pretty decent. I got a Stanley #7 that rocks dirt cheap from the ebay, but I was very lucky (my bit of beginners luck). Decent Stanley #7s are few and far between, let alone from off the internets. If you can't stretch to a Clifton/Veritas/LieNielson, get a woodie.

A jack plane (#5 - #6) is for rough work and can be similarly rough and ready - a second hand Stanley will do nicely, as will a woodie - a door stop probably makes an acceptable jack too, or you might get away with using your faithful #4 or as a small jack at a push.

Best bang for buck I reckon is second hand woodies - seriously good planes go for seriously cheap all the time (no need to compromise here). The exception is the block plane - you want as good a low angle metal plane with all the adjustable bits as you can find funds for - perhaps with all the tweaking the faithful will keep you going.
 
thanks for the replies.... had thought about Ebay, but buying sight unseen and the rubbish I`ve seen on there for extortionate money, made me think twice, so I`ll have to look else where...
 
Work up to some of the finer planes. I probably own most of them and those I don't I have at least used or tested.

I haven't found that non-adjustable wooden planes and even home made planes are a good option except if you needed to make a plane for a specific function which is indeed fun and enjoyable as well as practical. I like adjustable planes that have moving parts that don't wear out or wear too fast. Non flat soles can be flattened and then kept flat within say half an hour to an hour. I have flattened the sole of my newly-bought-in-the -1960's Stanley number 4 1/2 three times out of necessity since I bought it as they do wear down unevenly through constant use. I've used it every day of my forty years in woodworking and though I do not use any mechanical grindstone for grinding and sharpening my irons, I have replaced the plane iron three times by simply sharpening them on diamond stones and buffing on a leather strop. Even so, I have never been sold on thick, overly-hardened replacement irons either, though I have used them and own planes with them in. They may keep an edge a little longer, but it's extremely hard too revive the bevel and cutting edge without grinding off and wasting tons of steel and I would also say that my planes never chatter even though they have the original thin irons, which is the sales pitch that supposedly justifies the exorbitant prices charged for them.

Re the comment about the smoothing plane in the glass case and using it at Christmas: I found that a bemusing comment though maybe I missed something. The 4 and 4 1/2 smoothers are true workhorses alongside a 5 1/2 in that they will remove all of the planer marks and any end snipe and trim up boards perfectly, which minimizes the levels used in sanding by up to 80%. That translates into less dust masks, hand vibration under orbital sanders and less dust in the atmosphere of the shop. For many, I believe, the smoothing plane is not a decorator item but an essential.

Now then there is the try plane issue and herein lies my question. Are most of use jointing our stock by surface planing machines or by hand? I suggest it's likely the former. That being the case, the number 7 should be in the glass case. If I am wrong, then the try plane has its place, but is only a part in the whole scheme of surface preparation.

Buying on E bay. I think you must buy carefully and look for good pictures of the item and ask questions before you buy. I have generally had success with an occasional failure. I'm sure there are many out there with a different story though and I am sorry that that happens.

Anyway. I hope you all have a very good new year!

Paul Sellers
 
Paul, thanks for that.....

I normally use a lot of electro-mechanical devices :lol: ( planers, thicknessers etc) to dimension my wood, but recently got some old mahogany/teak window frames sills etc and started to clean them up for use on projects...
but rather than get all the kit out I reached for my no4, and the old stanley and started prepping the wood...
talk about bringing back school day memories, heck, I could have been stood next to a classmate..and I actuallly found it quite therapeutic?sp and relaxing and no NOISE, and even found old talents again , by finishing the wood square :shock: .
so hence my request for more planes .....As a rule of thumb what could I conceivably get away with for starters??
 
Hi Neil,
I think that a good No 4 or 4 1/2 is a good place to start. Mine have served me well. You could go for either a Record or a Stanley, though I am biased towards the Stanleys. I look for rosewood handles if possible which means buying something older. Make sure there are no cracks in the rear handle. I also recommend the wider No 4 1/2 unless you are small handed or and small in stature in which case go for the smaller size and grow into the larger. People often talk about the close tolerance of engineered threads on some other finely engineered planes being made, meaning that there is much less whiplash between advancing and withdrawing the protruding blade, but in reality I find I can spin my adjustment knob forwards and backwards and take up any slack in one twist.

Woodworking is about finding the balance between what modern methods have to offer without throwing out what was common craftsmanship in the days before they were invented and developed. It's all too easy to let the machine dominate and control or even dictate a design because of the limitations that they impose and so render sterile many of today's designs. I excitedly suggest that you discover for yourself exactly what the old craftsmen had. Some of the finest work ever produced throughout history was produced in the pre-machine age and serve as examples for us to learn from and admire and aspire to today.

You said that you had an Anant, I think. Though these plane makers in India have always had a lowly reputation and poor levels of quality when it comes to hand planes, the planes can be fettled like any other. If you do have one, then it's probably a number 4. if that's the case I suggest you try for both the number 4 1/2 and 5 1/2. I have found these wider planes give better balance, and the extra width, though seemingly marginal, is of great benefit. The Faithfull should work fine but the downside of Faithfull tools is that they don't always give you the feeling of heirloom tools.

I have bought several 4 1/2's and 5 1/2's on Ebay for around £10 to £15. Shipping sometimes inflates this price but when you think that a good old plane will last another hundred years, it's a small investment.

If I were to recommend your next bench-type plane I wood go for a bevel-up low-angle Veritas. if you go on line, I wrote an article a couple of years ago about shooting boards. I used the Veritas planes to illustrate both the value of the cutting boards and also the low angle planes. You can download the whole article for from here.

Sincerely for now,

Paul Sellers
 
Neil,
Just to show you what i mean about over emphasis on machine governed designs. This chair is a design I did many years ago and I still make it with hardly any machine involvement like planers, jointers, mortisers and tenoning machines. I may use a bandsaw for the curved rockers and roughing out my square stock. The rest I hand plane for exercise and fun.
DSCN0042-copy2small.jpg


Regards,
Paul Sellers
 
Great article Paul. I agree with every word, seems us Dinosaurs aren't quite extinct yet! :lol:
I've got quite a selection of boards as well, including one over 3ft long, and I happen to like planing! :oops:
Like you said, less dust, less noise, and a superior finish as well.
Currently I have to make do with a modified number 4 plane, but I think I'll have try my local car boots this year for a low angle plane.

Roy.
 
Mr. Sellers,

On new 4 1/2's...Veritas , Clifton, L-N, others...? I have read a few negatives about Clifton's quality control but sure like their looks. Is the cast vs malleable iron for the body a really big issue? Anyone ever cracked a Clifton? Not sure I can get used to the Veritas handle.

Would you go for a traditional (45 degree) plane over LA 4 1/2 or Bevel Up Veritas smoother for ones first smoother? Or perhaps the BU dedicated smoother or LA smoother plus a LA Jack but then one would not have a traditional plane at all?

Many Thanks,
Stephen
 
If Clifton does have quality control issues (I've had one with a wonky handle) they're readily resolvable by returning them to the shop. Apparently rumours that Clifton use an inferior cast iron process are a dirty lie, they have annealed iron bodies which is apparently (I'm no expert on such things) the holy grail of stuff for the making of metal planes and superior even to the ductile irons of Lie Nielson and Veritas.
 
bswiseman":1nsbzufa said:
I have read a few negatives about Clifton's
Click to expand...

I have four Cliftons (#3, #4.5, #6 and #7) and I reckon they are great. I prefer them to Lie Nielsen and Veritas bench planes. However, it's very much a personal thing and it's best to try and compare and see which ones you prefer (the quality of all three makes is similar). I don't think you need to worry about breaking them - Clifton have apparently done tests by dropping them onto concrete without them breaking.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
bswiseman":13e0ncta said:
Mr. Sellers,

On new 4 1/2's...Veritas , Clifton, L-N, others...? I have read a few negatives about Clifton's quality control but sure like their looks. Is the cast vs malleable iron for the body a really big issue? Anyone ever cracked a Clifton? Not sure I can get used to the Veritas handle.

Would you go for a traditional (45 degree) plane over LA 4 1/2 or Bevel Up Veritas smoother for ones first smoother? Or perhaps the BU dedicated smoother or LA smoother plus a LA Jack but then one would not have a traditional plane at all?

Many Thanks,
Stephen
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,
I think that all three manufacturers set the standard and few of the old makers ever came close to them in terms of engineering standards. L-N planes are impeccably made and if you like what has become the traditional Bailey- or Bedrock-pattern planes with the adjustments centrally concentrated for single-handed adjustment, I think that both L_N and Clifton have accomplished the highest engineering standards of excellence in the production of these standard bench planes and others.

In my experience, a bevel-down plane has a much wider range of uses in general woodworking and furniture making and therefor I find it more practical and useful. I like to own a couple of bevel-up planes as well as small block planes, but if I was looking into buying my first plane or two they would be bevel-down planes.

Sincerely,

Paul Sellers
 
Thanks Mr. Jay, Mr. Chapman and Mr Sellers!

It all makes since. I guess one of the differences is that Clifton's irons are high carbon vs L-N's A2 since Veritas has both.
Stephen
 
If I could add my two euros worth. I have a fair selection of bevel down planes and find them excellent for general bench work. However, after initially being very sceptical about bevel up planes I'm now pretty much sold on the Veritas low angle trio of smoother, jack and jointer. If you haven't tried them then they are definitely worth a punt - Rob
 

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