Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools

[GerryT]

It amazes me that there are people posting here about other people who make content and shock and horror make money from doing so who appear to have some experience in working with wood and forget that woodwork is not a science. Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another. Either way, the wood does't care, the joint will fit well enough most of the time. Imprecision and minor imperfections and all.

When PS, RC et al expound on a subject, they are giving an opinion. Many on here have said as much. Why act like a bunch of armchair contract lawyers and look for phrases that seem to make someone look bad, appear arrogant, a bit of a know it all. You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.

But that’s the point Gary, (at least my point) they aren’t always giving just an opinion but throwing around dogmatism as if that’s the end of it.
Unwary prospective woodies latch unto this sort of talk and go out of their way to perpetuate the dogmatism.
Sure, we can all choose to ignore or not, but some folk who are just starting out to spend their hard earned cash don’t often know a good chisel from a fork.
Certainly there is plenty of sound advice to be had from RC or PS but my initial post was not referring to their advice per se, but their plain and simple dogmatism when they do give advice …“My way is right and you‘re way is wrong “ or “my way is the only way” .

Nothing wrong with making money out of producing online content..if it’s good.
But some are making money out of online content by telling others that they‘re making money out of woodwork they produce, and you can do the same, or at least giving that impression no doubt deliberately, when in fact they’re making money out of producing online content “about” woodworking …there’s a world of difference.
Sometimes false impressions are no different from telling porkies.

Recently I was talking to someone who got hooked onto PS’s website.
He bought a load of tools of EBay including a couple of Stanley No4s (PS‘s fav).
He also bought a Record 071 for which he paid £145.
I ask him why he bought 071 instead of buying a new Lie-Nielsen or Veritas for a few pound more and he said he had considered them but PS seemed to recommended the 071 over and above the others.
Why I ask this recommendation, it’s not that much cheaper than the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen ?
Could it be just preference on PS’ behalf ?
Maybe, but maybe not.

PS’s has a way of making simple things simple and not over complicating what should be simple tasks and seems a nice enough fella ,but his “my way or no way” mentality isn’t particularly endearing.

Thats only in my opinion of course as I haven’t tried him out over time against anyone of similar quality to make a genuine comparison

This forum is as good as any for advice with little dogmatism on show …except when it comes to sharpening techniques of course

 

[Jacob]

......

Recently I was talking to someone who got hooked onto PS’s website.
He bought a load of tools of EBay including a couple of Stanley No4s (PS‘s fav).
He also bought a Record 071 for which he paid £145.
I ask him why he bought 071 instead of buying a new Lie-Nielsen or Veritas for a few pound more and he said he had considered them but PS seemed to recommended the 071 over and above the others.
Why I ask this recommendation, it’s not that much cheaper than the Veritas or Lie-Nielsen ?
Could it be just preference on PS’ behalf ?
Maybe, but maybe not.
....

He wrote a blog in 2012 about 071s and hardly mentions LV or LN alternatives.
Can't see any reason why he should have - he doesn't sell tools and wasn't doing a consumer report comparison. It's up to the buyer to do that.
It'd be crazy if every time he mentioned a tool he had to cross reference all the other options for the sake of balance!
It would also be boring and highly contentious! Buying Good Tools Cheap - The Router Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog

 

[D_W]

He wrote a blog in 2012 about 071s and makes no mention of the modern LV or LN alternatives.
Can't see any reason why he should have - he doesn't sell tools and wasn't doing a consumer report comparison. It's up to the buyer to do that.
It'd be crazy if every time he mentioned a tool he had to cross reference all the other options for the sake of balance!
It would also be boring and highly contentious! Buying Good Tools Cheap - The Router Plane - Paul Sellers' Blog

Let's be honest, too. He's got a gimmick to peddle, the "old ones are better than the new ones" gimmick. If he turned around and said "ghee, now that they're the same price, it really doesn't make a difference what you buy", it would blow up the gimmick.

I personally like the old ones better, but because they're a little loose and less precise. I'd have to think a little harder if they cost more than a new one, though (had the LV version and sold it - it broke the rust rule. Rust rule - if you have a premium tool and it rusts due to disuse, out the door it goes).

 

[GerryT]

Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?
I can say that I feel the 071 is a good tool because I have one and use it, but couldn’t tell you if it’s “better” or “superior“ than a LN or Veritas as I haven’t used either of them, but that’s what PS consistently does.
Its not rocket science .
PS bases his views on consistently recommending older tools.
Like D-W says, it his gimmick or hook.

Much like your hook or gimmick is hollow stones, rounded bevels and hand sharpening.

That’s a joke by the way

 

[Jacob]

Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?

Sellers didn't say they were superior - he didn't compare them at all. ....

 

[Jacob]

Again Jacob you miss the point entirely .
If you’re saying that a tool is superior or better based on your use of it over an above an other of the same tool on the market then surely you need to have used them both to come to that conclusion and recommend ?
I can say that I feel the 071 is a good tool because I have one and use it, but couldn’t tell you if it’s “better” or “superior“ than a LN or Veritas as I haven’t used either of them, but that’s what PS consistently does.
Its not rocket science .
PS bases his views on consistently recommending older tools.
Like D-W says, it his gimmick or hook.

Much like your hook or gimmick is hollow stones, rounded bevels and hand sharpening.

That’s a joke by the way

Why shouldn't he recommend older tools if that's what he thinks? He explains why, and they were a lot cheaper when he wrote that blog - value for money is a big issue for some of us.
I'd recommend them too, in general, and I have tried a lot of them.

 

[heimlaga]

In my books it is a good thing that someone is trying to stem the spread of the ideas that tools must be shiny and expensive to do their job. However one always has to remember that there is not and has never been any "one size fits all" in woodworking.

 

[TheTiddles]

In my books it is a good thing that someone is trying to stem the spread of the ideas that tools must be shiny and expensive to do their job. However one always has to remember that there is not and has never been any "one size fits all" in woodworking.

Do you see the idea that tools have to be shiny and expensive to work being promoted, or is it that someone says “this is a great tool” and it happens to be shiny and expensive?

If someone picks up a block plane made by Clifton/veritas/LN even the Chinese manufactures of higher quality tools in the last 20-years, that hasn’t been abused, it’s going to be shiny and might be relatively expensive, they’re still great tools, you’d be sliding a cigarette paper between them in terms of performance.

 

[GerryT]

Sellers didn't say they were superior - he didn't compare them at all. ....

Jacob are you being deliberately obtuse or is that just the way you are ?

What is it that he didn’t compare Jacob ?
I think in your haste to have yourself heard you either don’t read the posts or misunderstand what’s actually being said.

If you go back to my original thread post you will see we’re I’m coming from and see that PS does use the term “superior“ when talking about older planes.
But then again maybe you don’t want to see what the thread was about at the beginning.



Heimlaga

Yes it is good, but the cheaper tools are no longer cheaper tools for the most part.
Tools don’t have to be shiny and most of mine, in fact probably all of them aren’t shiny.
I‘m not advocating folk buy LN or Veritas or any other top maker’s tools, far from it.
The original post was not about the price of tools or make of tools but about comparison or lack of it in recommendations .

 

[Jacob]

Jacob are you being deliberately obtuse or is that just the way you are ?

What is it that he didn’t compare Jacob ?
I think in your haste to have yourself heard you either don’t read the posts or misunderstand what’s actually being said.

If you go back to my original thread post you will see we’re I’m coming from and see that PS does use the term “superior“ when talking about older planes.
But then again maybe you don’t want to see what the thread was about at the beginning.



Heimlaga

Yes it is good, but the cheaper tools are no longer cheaper tools for the most part.
Tools don’t have to be shiny and most of mine, in fact probably all of them aren’t shiny.
I‘m not advocating folk buy LN or Veritas or any other top maker’s tools, far from it.
The original post was not about the price of tools or make of tools but about comparison or lack of it in recommendations .

Yes I'm missing the point. If he thinks some tools are superior why shouldn't he say so?
Re: older Stanleys being better than later ones - this is well known, they went downhill a bit.

 

[D_W]

Why shouldn't he recommend older tools if that's what he thinks? He explains why, and they were a lot cheaper when he wrote that blog - value for money is a big issue for some of us.
I'd recommend them too, in general, and I have tried a lot of them.

Certainly if I were trying to wring out the maximum for people going to classes, I'd push the whole "don't spend money on tools. Live the good life and come to my classes". I didn't keep notes as there was something that smelled funny to me about paul's media push at the outset (how would most people not know who he was if there was something notable about him? Did anyone ever have to describe lynton mckenzie to an engraving student?

But as I recall, some of these "lifestyle woodworking" courses were around $700 at the time.

There's nothing particularly wrong with a woodworking course for $700, either - if that's what someone wants to do. But there's nothing taught in them that's not as well or better described in older texts if someone actually wants to work by hand.

 

[AJB Temple]

Is this thread just meant to be an attack on Mr Sellers? If so, why? He expresses a view. We are all at liberty to disagree. Nothing much has been added as far as I can see in 6 pages.

 

[jcassidy]

I don't really understand the heated opinions. Sellers has his website and his social media and his opinions, all of which anyone can use, or not. Its not his fault if some think he's a god or savant. It's his right to monetise his expertise, experience, and opinion.

A lot of what he says probably is aimed at his audience, who want to be told that the old Record or Stanley plane they picked up at a car boot is BETTER then an expensive LN plane, so there! / Nyah nyah.

People who want to be told that a new LN plane is the end all and be all of planes, well they probably don't watch Paul Sellers... They watch someone else.

If I had a website and I said my crappy Ross plane is the best plá é ever made, and some officious Joe made a comment pointing out how wrong I am, I'd remove the comment to.

It's my f**king website.

 

[jcassidy]

BTW I bought his book and I really like it.

I also bought the book about the Worthington tool chest, another one about the preservation of medieval ring forts in Ireland "Men who eat ring forts", by a small commune in Clare, and "32 Words for Field" by Manchán Magan.

In other words, if there's a limited print book by some independent entity on an interesting topic, I'll probably buy it!

I found Magan was the most opinionated by far....

 

[Noel]

BTW I bought his book and I really like it.

I also bought the book about the Worthington tool chest, another one about the preservation of medieval ring forts in Ireland "Men who eat ring forts", by a small commune in Clare, and "32 Words for Field" by Manchán Magan.

In other words, if there's a limited print book by some independent entity on an interesting topic, I'll probably buy it!

I found Magan was the most opinionated by far....

Manchán Magan can be an interesting character, enjoy his talks on history. Rubbish at building houses although....
Must check out Ringforts, I see one of the authors is Sinéad Mercier, who I follow on SM. (Assume it's the same person).

 

[D_W]

Manchán Magan can be an interesting character, enjoy his talks on history. Rubbish at building houses although....
Must check out Ringforts, I see one of the authors is Sinéad Mercier, who I follow on SM. (Assume it's the same person).

I don't know anything about this Magan, but we have two frank lloyd wright houses local here (kentuck knob and falling water). Kentuck knob is rather pedestrian (though some of the ideas in it are a bit weird), but I understand many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow.

I'm guessing we're talking about totally different types, though.

 

[Gary_S]

Sometimes people share information on forums without expecting anything in return.

They do. Sometimes people harp. I prefer the former.

 

[pidgeonpost]

I don't really understand the heated opinions. Sellers has his website and his social media and his opinions, all of which anyone can use, or not. Its not his fault if some think he's a god or savant. It's his right to monetise his expertise, experience, and opinion.

A lot of what he says probably is aimed at his audience, who want to be told that the old Record or Stanley plane they picked up at a car boot is BETTER then an expensive LN plane, so there! / Nyah nyah.

People who want to be told that a new LN plane is the end all and be all of planes, well they probably don't watch Paul Sellers... They watch someone else.

If I had a website and I said my crappy Ross plane is the best plá é ever made, and some officious Joe made a comment pointing out how wrong I am, I'd remove the comment to.

It's my f**king website.

It's that sort of forum. Sometimes members who are the most helpful can also be the most combative. It's a bit like the Sellers/Cosman discussions and you just have to dip and then, as I do, dip out when it all gets a bit silly.

 

[Noel]

I don't know anything about this Magan, but we have two frank lloyd wright houses local here (kentuck knob and falling water). Kentuck knob is rather pedestrian (though some of the ideas in it are a bit weird), but I understand many of FLWs houses don't stay together very well without enormous amounts of cash inflow.

I'm guessing we're talking about totally different types, though.

I don't know how to even start to reply to that DW. What are you on about?

 

[ecokestove]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the lifetime servicing of an old whatever would involve more work than making a new one.

I very much doubt it. I often buy used tools and other things from eBay. I'm not against it, but businesses need people to buy their products or services in order to thrive, or even survive. It's just a point to consider when buying something and, of course, it's the buyer's choice. Also, today's new thing is tomorrow's used thing. You can have the last word if you like.