One for all you plumbing and heating people ...........

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Phil Pascoe

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I'm going to put a mains pressure tank (200lt or thereabouts) in my loft to run off Economy 7 and a multi fuel stove. I would prefer to have it run on a normal supply with a timer rather than have two elements - the advantage of two would be near nonexistent. Is there any advantage in fitting a larger tank than needed that hasn't occurred to me? Any advice on brands, fitting and things to watch for and do (or not) would be welcome. TIA. :D

I say mains pressure - is it legit? I'm getting a registered installer, but I want to do the research on prices before the event.
 
couple of things spring to mind;
I thought economy seven finished years ago? Is piskie land so far behind the rest of england?

A 200 litre tank has 200 kilos of water inside it. add the weight of the tank and the fittings, and a man standing next to it to repair it, can your loft take 500 kgs (half a metric ton) on the floor space allotted to it?

Pressurised tanks are common now, as long as the installer understands them and fits the correct over pressure safety valves and pipework its no big deal.
 
The supporting walls aren't a problem. Pressurised tanks are common, but I'm looking at an unregulated heat source - as fast as I read something that says I can I read something else that says I can't. I'm going around in circles. I can't really install the immersion in the roof space then raise the cold tank - it wouldn't have enough head.
Economy 7 finished? No, it's a national tariff - and it should be compulsory for everyone, it would encourage off peak electricty usage and save the need for yet another power station. My neighbour was on Economy 10, which was different again.
 
I go back at least 30 years in somerset when I had an economy 7 meter. I was under the impression it had finished, obviously I was mis informed.

Cant quote regs and rules, so as long as youre happy it wont come though the ceiling, thats me done.
Good luck.
 
I'd be wary about installing an unvented hwc off a stove. You can get a cylinder/ thermal store where the main volume of water is heated by the stove and is vented to atmosphere. The mains water is piped through the cylinder via a finned/integron coil where heat is transferred from the mass of water in the body of the cylinder to the main, to provide hot water. The advantage is that there is no chance of steam forming/ pressurising the cylinder - possibly causing it to explode.

I recall hearing about an unvented hot water cylinder course where the instructor said something along the lines that its not rocket science installing an unvented hot water cylinder - unless of course you do it wrong, referring to how the base of the cylinder could detach from the body should the vessel explode causing the top and body of the cylinder to launch skyward; generally through the roof wrecking the building.

If it was me, I would go for a thermal store with a vented primary with an integral coil with a high heat transfer area.
 
Some thoughts:

We have a 300 litre tank in a side attic (in a gable-end). It's got two heating coils, one fed from the boiler, and a lower one fed by 8sq m of solar panels on the roof. I can't easily measure the efficiencies, but I can tell you that in the depths of winter, the solar still works, when direct sunlight hits it. It doesn't contribute on cloudy days though. There is an immersion heater, which is pretty much only there for emergencies (if the boiler breaks down). It's not on an economy tarrif.

The tank is right next to the boiler, in the exact centre of the loft space because it's tall - it only just fits in - and supported on a separate sub-floor and three (IIRC) joists spanning the gable, above the original ceiling.

After about ten years, it's getting a bit cruddy (unlike Cornwall, we are in a very hard water area), and probably ought to be replaced - I have a lot of nuisance issues with limescale around the system as a whole, but a water softener is impractical (after extensive research, and even buying one and then not fitting it).

So...

Thing #1: wherever and however you fit it, make sure you have allowed enough room to have another plumber wrestle another tank into the space, should that ever be necessary. In our case, you'd have to remove the door jambs from the connection to the bathroom next door, and it would be VERY tight, but should be do-able. The attic is our airing cupboard, and I've made all the shelving hinged and removable, so there is ample room.

Thing #2: You could get the volume of storage by using two tanks instead of one big one. I can't think of a technical reason not to, and the reheat time would probably be quite a bit better (bigger heating coil area), but the whole installation would be more expensive - tankage would be quite a lot more, plumbing costs higher, and it would need thoughtful design and set-up. But it would also spread the weight a bit, which might be helpful. I considered it for our place, but in the end the plumbers decided they could get a big tank in - and they did. You'd also have to apply a bit of brainpower to the immersion heater aspect. It's probably the case that just fitting small heaters would do it, although you might be fine with the ones supplied, as those are sized appropriately for the tanks.

Thing #3: The plumbing beomes "interestingly" complex: These tanks do not run at mains pressure (up to 6 bar), but are controlled to 3 bar by a relatively high-volume pressure reducer. This can be a nuisance if some of the cold taps are fed from mains at high pressure, because of the risk of back-flow through mixer taps and shower mixers. They are supposed to have check valves these days (in the taps), but that's usually more about preventing syphoning from 'grey' water in the bath or the kitchen sink (I have no idea how this might ever happen - water byelaws are based mainly on energetically-written fantasy fiction, as far as I can tell).

Anyway, I have several small pressure reducers fitted in the house (kitchen tap, downstairs shower/cloak room and one bathroom), as I found that the kitchen tap, almost the farthest from the installation, was running oddly cold. Our big pressure reducer, on the inlet to the tank, has an extra, convenient, low pressure outlet, which we've used for the top shower and bath taps. Both run really nicely, because hot and cold are "balanced".

Thing #4: These tanks cannot "explode" unless something is done very wrong at installation. All parts of the system: the hot water you actually use, the heating water circulating, and in our case, the solar circuit too, are each protected by a safety pressure valve. Everything except the solar (which doesn't need it) have their vents going via a "Tundish" to outside the building (the Tundish is there to splash a bit (safely!), and make it obvious that the vent has opened). If anything boiled it might do damage, but there is pretty much zero possibility of the tank exploding.

Thing #5: In our place the tank and the gas "system" boiler are right next to each other in the attic. This works well in that it minimises any heat losses in the primary circuit (boiler to tank). For everything else it has some issues, for example, it's harder on the heating pump, as there's no help from gravity getting the water to circulate. And the boiler is a a fair distance from where we want room heat. So I invested in seriously expensive pipe lagging:
Glassfibre_pipe_grande.png

The stuff I bought is called "Isover" and came from a local industrial heating specialist. The yellow stuff inside is fairly dense glassfibre. The smallest internal diameter available is 22mm, so any 15mm pipes float about in it, but I've also used it successfully with 10mm "microbore" for one long heating run, with both flow and return going down the same insulation tube. It has a flap of stcky aluminium tape to join the two sides together when you close it up, and you have extra sticky aluminium tape to seal joins. It comes in 4ft lengths, IIRC, and I cut it with an old breadknife (keep a diamond plate handy!). Corners and pipe clips require care (you have to mitre it, sometimes in 22.5 deg. increments, depending on the bend).

It makes a huge difference to the efficiency, and doesn't degrade over time. But it does make pipe runs physically bigger, obviously (it's about twice the overall diameter of the stuff you can buy in DIY sheds). You also need extra standoffs for your pipe clips (off the wall), as it doesn't compress and won't fit under normal 22mm clips - you just need to use pipe clips that have the extra standoffs as clip on accessories.

I would definitely use something like it for the primary run between your stove and the tank, otherwise accept that you will be wasting a fair bit of heat before it reaches your hot water store.

It is very hard to measure efficiency improvements or supposed reduction in household bills in our case, partly because we've improved the heating bit-by-bit as we could afford it, and partly because it's a complicated issue. I can tell you that it works pretty well, that I don't miss the huge, very wasteful old boilers (there were two together!), which probably heated the back garden as much as the house! And, on sunny days as late as October and as early as late April, we don't need the boiler at all for a hot bath in the evening.

Regarding using a stove for the primary heating, this sholdn't be an issue: people use AGAs and Rayburns designed as CH/DHW boilers. You just need an experienced, completent plumber.

The huge advantage of the pressurised system we have is oodles of hot water when you need it in the morning. I usually have a bath, and the rest of the family showers. It does struggle with bath + shower together, as the bath fills really fast, but could cope with all three showers at the same time. (probably - one is a bit Niagara-ish).

When we moved in 20 years ago, we had header tanks for both DHW and heating. The latter grew a huge raft of mould on the surface of the water: disgusting, scary and horrible when I removed it from the attic. The other tank was badly fitted and meant the hot water never worked properly, and again was a health hazard. I don't miss either of them!

Hope that's useful. It's early; I couldn't sleep (normal!); it's very rambling as a consequence. There might be something useful in there. I hope so.

E.

PS: the solar side is extremely simple in operation, and has been very reliable over about ten years. Unlike the electrical-generation sort the panels probably don't age, and we are still using the original circulating water! It doesn't need any electrial/control connection to the rest of the heating system, because it's lower down the hot tank than the boiler's coil. Everything just works, auto-magically. I love that aspect of it. And it shuts down in summer (for safety) when the roof water temp reaches 104 deg Centigrade - which is quite a bit hotter than the boiler manages. It'll do that most days in high summer, but pick up again if you use the tank water.
 
You can not put an unregulated heat source on a sealed system. You can confirm this with a download of the relevant BC document.

You could possibky run a coil through a pressurised tank, but it would need to be capable of transfering the output of your stove at full whack.

If BC would sign this off, I'm really not sure, as it would still pretty much be a unregulated source connected to a sealed system - I suspect it's probably not allowed, but do check.

We have a 300ltr thermal store connected to a solid fuel burner. The domestic hot water coil is the only part at mains pressure (well, regulated down to 3 bar) and supplies hot water at pressure, even in the event of a power cut, to the upstairs of our home, even though the store is safely downstairs on a concrete floor (which, due to the construction of our home is still high enough to thermosyphon from the burner)
 

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