One-*** efficacy questions

[Terry - Somerset]

Insulating the elderly is eminent feasible. They do it anyway lots of the time.

The elderly rely substantially upon the younger for care and support - not all and not all of the time.

Events in care homes earlier in the pandemic demonstrate clearly how a single incoming infection from (probably) visiting relatives or care staff can spread. Complete separation of the elderly would only be achieved through denial of all external contact.

You may think this acceptable - you are entitled to an opinion. The alternative of denying the young work, income and a social life is an equal and opposite extreme and equally unattractive in my view.

So we end up with compromise policies which the intolerant or those with more extreme views (you??) find difficult to accept.

 

[D_W]

one of my least favorite saying is "agree to disagree", which people usually say when they're figured out that they're wrong.

So, disagree to agree.

And don't get covid (a variation that a drug user neighbor in college used to say "don't smoke crack". He's now a TV personality at a local station near me - I certainly will not name him. Super intelligent guy - liked the green stuff and dabbled in others while folks like me who worry about everything wouldn't even be in the same building with any of it).

 

[Peterm1000]

Masks do nothing mate. Its rather sweet you think they do

Did you get that from the same source as the person who told you that Indians don't have bank accounts? I think you should call Rudyard Kipling and tell him he's feeding you fiction packaged up as truth.

Both the WHO and BMJ are firmly of the belief that masks help reduce the spread of the virus by reducing the amount of water droplets (which contain the virus) that spread outwards when you breath. That concept should be easy for a woodworker to understand because it's the same concept as dust filtration.

 

[Rorschach]

Some pictures of a few people taking responsibility for their own welfare, protecting themselves and being trusted to do the right thing. I think some of these people might find a tape measure useful as I would suggest those distances might be a little under 2 metres.

I'm curious, do you think these people are travelling for a laugh or because it might be important or even essential for them to do so? I am afraid like Tony you are also somewhat proving my point.

 

[Chris152]

This thread has now become completely absurd. Two people are promoting perspectives very much at odds with what the leading virologists and epidemiologists throughout the world are saying, without themselves being leaders in those fields (unless I'm much mistaken). Others are pointlessly trying to argue with them (assuming the object is to change their understanding). Fine, if it were of no consequence, but as many can see, this is a serious disease that's being bickered about (whatever anyone thinks) and misinformation/ ignorance/ whatever can cost lives. It's not an abstract problem.
I think it's time to stop the nonsense and close the thread - or at least stop participating. I regret starting it, tho I'm grateful for the helpful replies at the start.

 

[Jonm]

This thread has now become completely absurd. Two people are promoting perspectives very much at odds with what the leading virologists and epidemiologists throughout the world are saying, without themselves being leaders in those fields (unless I'm much mistaken). Others are pointlessly trying to argue with them (assuming the object is to change their understanding). Fine, if it were of no consequence, but as many can see, this is a serious disease that's being bickered about (whatever anyone thinks) and misinformation/ ignorance/ whatever can cost lives. It's not an abstract problem.
I think it's time to stop the nonsense and close the thread - or at least stop participating. I regret starting it, tho I'm grateful for the helpful replies at the start.

I would not regret starting it, there has been a lot of useful stuff which I have found helpful. Unfortunately recently there have been discussions from entrenched positions and an unwillingness to listen carefully to the opposing view, it has become a slanging match. There are big changes happening on 17 May which will be interesting and worth discussing. In the meantime it would be best for everyone to disengage.

 

[Rorschach]

discussions from entrenched positions and an unwillingness to listen carefully to the opposing view

There certainly have!

I wouldn't say it has been a slanging match though, have there been any personal insults or name calling? I thought it was all rather civil even if we were disagreeing.

It might be worth shifting into the number 2 forum though.

 

[Selwyn]

The elderly rely substantially upon the younger for care and support - not all and not all of the time.

Events in care homes earlier in the pandemic demonstrate clearly how a single incoming infection from (probably) visiting relatives or care staff can spread. Complete separation of the elderly would only be achieved through denial of all external contact.

You may think this acceptable - you are entitled to an opinion. The alternative of denying the young work, income and a social life is an equal and opposite extreme and equally unattractive in my view.

So we end up with compromise policies which the intolerant or those with more extreme views (you??) find difficult to accept.

No it wasn't from a single member of staff. Loads of the care home deaths came from kicking people who were ill out of hospital into care homes when they should have stayed in hospital. That caused the massive spike - it was extreme policies like kicking people who needed hospital out of them that did loads of damage - thats why the spike was so high and so quick

 

[Selwyn]

This thread has now become completely absurd. Two people are promoting perspectives very much at odds with what the leading virologists and epidemiologists throughout the world are saying, without themselves being leaders in those fields (unless I'm much mistaken). Others are pointlessly trying to argue with them (assuming the object is to change their understanding). Fine, if it were of no consequence, but as many can see, this is a serious disease that's being bickered about (whatever anyone thinks) and misinformation/ ignorance/ whatever can cost lives. It's not an abstract problem.
I think it's time to stop the nonsense and close the thread - or at least stop participating. I regret starting it, tho I'm grateful for the helpful replies at the start.

Leading virologists and epidemiolgists?

Come off it

John Ioanddis, Sunetra Gupta? They are being silenced!

Who are our virologists on sage?

 

[Peterm1000]

I'm curious, do you think these people are travelling for a laugh or because it might be important or even essential for them to do so? I am afraid like Tony you are also somewhat proving my point.

The point I think you were making is that people would socially distance without government intervention - which these pictures clearly disprove. The reality is that without the government making rules about essential vs non-essential work large swathes of typically lower paid employees would have been forced by their employers to travel and work in the way shown by the pictures. The only reason I am not on the tube with these people every day is because the government said non-essential workers were not allowed to travel to go to work.

 

[Peterm1000]

This thread has now become completely absurd. Two people are promoting perspectives very much at odds with what the leading virologists and epidemiologists throughout the world are saying, without themselves being leaders in those fields (unless I'm much mistaken). Others are pointlessly trying to argue with them (assuming the object is to change their understanding). Fine, if it were of no consequence, but as many can see, this is a serious disease that's being bickered about (whatever anyone thinks) and misinformation/ ignorance/ whatever can cost lives. It's not an abstract problem.
I think it's time to stop the nonsense and close the thread - or at least stop participating. I regret starting it, tho I'm grateful for the helpful replies at the start.

To be fair, you created a thread about one of the most controversial and political topics of recent times and didnt put it in the controversial topic forum

 

[Jake]

John Ioanddis, Sunetra Gupta? They are being silenced!

They aren't, they are still making lots of noise, but most people think they have made idiots of themselves in the process. It's more like there's an uneasy embarrassed silence from everyone else.

 

[Rorschach]

The point I think you were making is that people would socially distance without government intervention - which these pictures clearly disprove. The reality is that without the government making rules about essential vs non-essential work large swathes of typically lower paid employees would have been forced by their employers to travel and work in the way shown by the pictures. The only reason I am not on the tube with these people every day is because the government said non-essential workers were not allowed to travel to go to work.

That would be all well and good except for the fact that the government did mandate social distancing and those people are still on the tube, so the pictures prove my point, not yours. Also the government said nothing of the sort about essential workers, if you couldn't work from home you could travel, essential or not. Furloughed people were in industries where they literally couldn't work.

 

[Selwyn]

The point I think you were making is that people would socially distance without government intervention - which these pictures clearly disprove. The reality is that without the government making rules about essential vs non-essential work large swathes of typically lower paid employees would have been forced by their employers to travel and work in the way shown by the pictures. The only reason I am not on the tube with these people every day is because the government said non-essential workers were not allowed to travel to go to work.

The data from Tim Spectors zoe app is starting to show that in all lockdowns the peaks started to fall before the lockdowns. This is human nature/ common sense. You don't need a state imposed lockdown to do this. People adapt to risk and percieved risk.

This has always been the case and will always be the case.

It is solidified by evidence from countries that didn't lock down. It may be counter-intuitive but likely made things worse.

 

[Spectric]

You can argue over data and statistics all day long but hard evidence cannot be denied, this pandemic has been the root cause of too many deaths and so many were avoidable had our leaders acted on common sense and not waited for the data.

 

[Spectric]

The elderly rely substantially upon the younger for care and support - not all and not all of the time.

We were all young once upon a time, but when young you do not see the years flying past so much.

 

[rafezetter]

You are writing from a position of extreme comfort. I don't think you have any idea of the number of people out there who have to keep things going in order for you to be able to spend a year shielding. Strangling our economy hits the poor hardest and they have lost the most, them and the young.

Actually no Selwyn, and I'm annoyed that you presume to know my circumstances. At the beginning of last year I had a somewhat comfortable amount in savings, enough to keep me going in the event of injury or prolonged sickness as I am self employed; by the end of the year that amount had dwindled to just ONE MONTH, including getting 2x £1200 in SEISS, and it was only the easing of the lockdown just before Xmas to work, plus another SEISS, that saw me through the second lockdown.

My finances were such, that had the first lockdown not eased when it did, and had then gone into the second, that I would then have been in a situation of having almost no money to feed myself, AND be getting in arrears with my rent, utility bills etc etc.

I wouldn't call that "extreme comfort" at all, because I sure as crap didn't FEEL comfortable about it AT ALL, infact more than a few "OH CRAP" and "wtf can I do about this" difficult nights.

However, as I said multiple time in my posts about the lockdown, I WOULD STILL have chosen to go into arrears than advocate lifting it in favor of "letting old people die".

You know what I would call "extreme comfort"? Living in your own home, without the threat of eviction for unpaid rent - and if you beleive that no-one got evicted during the lockdown for unpaid rent then you are naive in the extreme, the landlords just didn't go through the courts to do it - possibly, probably having a pension or other income in your case Selwyn, or being furloughed on 80% of salary for all those people who were employed, and for those who were made unemployed, the benefits system.

I'd wind your neck in and stick to stuff you actually have facts for, you're starting to sound like our favorite forum troll.

LOL "masks do nothing?" tell that to every NHS worker, or Dental worker, or those working in the food production facilities, or basically anywhere else where coughing can occur and needs to be contained.

Masks don't protect you from them - THEY PROTECT THEM FROM YOU.[redacted][redacted][redacted][redacted].

If you think I'm talking BS, go to any supermarket now, take your mask off and start coughing loudly, I'll bet you'll clear an aisle in less than 5 seconds, or be told to put your mask on, or be told by a fellow shopper to GTFO.

 

[rafezetter]

You can argue over data and statistics all day long but hard evidence cannot be denied, this pandemic has been the root cause of too many deaths and so many were avoidable had our leaders acted on common sense and not waited for the data.

remove "leaders" and change for "stupid thoughtless moronic selfish people" - Why so many people keep pointing at "our leaders" when the real problem was "the people". The lockdown happened because of "the people" (being bloody stupid).

 

[Selwyn]

Actually no Selwyn, and I'm annoyed that you presume to know my circumstances. At the beginning of last year I had a somewhat comfortable amount in savings, enough to keep me going in the event of injury or prolonged sickness as I am self employed; by the end of the year that amount had dwindled to just ONE MONTH, including getting 2x £1200 in SEISS, and it was only the easing of the lockdown just before Xmas to work, plus another SEISS, that saw me through the second lockdown.

My finances were such, that had the first lockdown not eased when it did, and had then gone into the second, that I would then have been in a situation of having almost no money to feed myself, AND be getting in arrears with my rent, utility bills etc etc.

I wouldn't call that "extreme comfort" at all, because I sure as rubbish didn't FEEL comfortable about it AT ALL, infact more than a few "OH rubbish" and "wtf can I do about this" difficult nights.

However, as I said multiple time in my posts about the lockdown, I WOULD STILL have chosen to go into arrears than advocate lifting it in favor of "letting old people die".

You know what I would call "extreme comfort"? Living in your own home, without the threat of eviction for unpaid rent - and if you beleive that no-one got evicted during the lockdown for unpaid rent then you are naive in the extreme, the landlords just didn't go through the courts to do it - possibly, probably having a pension or other income in your case Selwyn, or being furloughed on 80% of salary for all those people who were employed, and for those who were made unemployed, the benefits system.

I'd wind your neck in and stick to stuff you actually have facts for, you're starting to sound like our favorite forum troll.

LOL "masks do nothing?" tell that to every NHS worker, or Dental worker, or those working in the food production facilities, or basically anywhere else where coughing can occur and needs to be contained.

Masks don't protect you from them - THEY PROTECT THEM FROM YOU.[redacted][redacted][redacted][redacted].

If you think I'm talking BS, go to any supermarket now, take your mask off and start coughing loudly, I'll bet you'll clear an aisle in less than 5 seconds, or be told to put your mask on, or be told by a fellow shopper to GTFO.

Why are you quoting from a post that wasn't referring to you?

Masks don't protect you - the virus is not spread by coughing alone. The reason for dentists and nhs workers wearing masks is to capture spit not to prevent minute viral particle emissions - because they don't do that!

You have been scared and propagandized into thinking a mask in a shop "protects" you. It doesn't

 

[Selwyn]

remove "leaders" and change for "stupid thoughtless moronic selfish people" - Why so many people keep pointing at "our leaders" when the real problem was "the people". The lockdown happened because of "the people" (being bloody stupid).

People were just living their lives as they'd always done. That isn't stupid. Its normal life