Oilstones advice

[D_W]

My favourite for using on an oilstone is water with a little dish soap (Fairy Liquid Eco-Ver or even ecconomy basic)

The rubbing action on the stone produces foam that clears the swarf and helps prevent pinning. Discovered this while polishing badly 'dragged' brass clock plates. Qiick wash and allow to dry the stone after using. If used with steel tools they need a light coat of oil immediately after. Rust forms surprisingly fast on bare steel!

To bring a stone back to flat and revitalise a blunt glazed surface I use corborundum powder mixed with water and soap solution on a glass plate. The grit rolls as the stone is rubbed over the plate and the sharp grain edges attack the stone bonding releasing the blunt stone surface grains rather than blunting the surface even more (big problem using diamond plates with fixed particles)

Its a bit like using a rotating wheel dressing stick on a bench grinder rather an old piece of stone. It tears and opens the surface rather than polishing it.

Just an opinion but to me oil shouldn't go anywhere near a wheel or stone. There are specialist soluble 'oils' used on surface or universal grinders but they are not oily, they more resemble antifreeze type fluids that include rust inhibitors.

there are a lot of razor guys who don't like oil based stuff. I don't know why. It's my opinion that the action of the stones is a little better if oil is used, but they can certainly be used without.

The other side benefit is that the use of a hydrotreated mineral oil will probably much stop tool rusting, even for a very long period of time.

I also flatten them when they're new - fine work is more easily done with flat stones, and judicious use keeps them flat just with minor periodic conditioning.

One of the favorites on the US forums to get oil like feel without using something that's not water based was ballistol. I still have a tube of it and never used it.

ballistol does have some viscosity - no clue on the name of it but would assume it's for guns or something.

 

[D_W]

Usually years of grit, gunk and old oil! Think they were originally made a close fit and over the years as the wood shrinks it binds. I released one once to find that the stone was in fact a compound, black on one side and a llilly white on the other totally hidden.

that type is actually a good example of how to get a good quality fine stone without paying for one that's 7x2x1 or 8x2x1.

I've had plenty where the box has shrunk enough that one part of it split around the stone, but not sure if any were mahogany like the ones above.

I've also had a sinful number of stones, and some have been older and hand cut irregular in width (usually with straight sides, but not equal width - trapezoidal) with very irregular bottoms. I would guess it was regular practice to bed those in plaster or something. A sort of second grade old turkish stone that I have is like that.

The early washitas were cut close to square in cross section, but at some point, the market came to prefer wider and thinner - well, at least some of the early ones. I like them, but one good one is enough for three lifetimes, so no real defense for having so many. Having them in hand does sometime solve mysteries about different performance accounts, and the turkish stone clues in why people would've liked turkish stones so much in an era when the alternative was slates and charnley.

I've removed a couple that are irregular on the bottom to find an ugly mess of plaster and some kind of adhesive only to realize there's no magic hidden second side. that's a bummer!!

 

[Jacob]

..

To bring a stone back to flat and revitalise a blunt glazed surface I use corborundum powder mixed with water and soap solution on a glass plate. The grit rolls as the stone is rubbed over the plate and the sharp grain edges attack the stone bonding releasing the blunt stone surface grains rather than blunting the surface even more (big problem using diamond plates with fixed particles)

Not bothered about "flat"myself so I refresh a surface with a 3m diapad which is flexible and diamond. If I hadn't already got it I suspect a stainless steel pan scrubber would do OK

Its a bit like using a rotating wheel dressing stick on a bench grinder rather an old piece of stone. It tears and opens the surface rather than polishing it.

Yes, very similar but not quite as drastic!

 

[Jacob]

Usually years of grit, gunk and old oil! Think they were originally made a close fit and over the years as the wood shrinks it binds.

Doesn't do to over think these things - they were simply made to fit, by somebody like you or me. Some stick as the wood bends, others are loosened by wear, or by fitting another stone etc

I released one once to find that the stone was in fact a compound, black on one side and a llilly white on the other totally hidden.

Quite normal. I got a 2nd hand Norton "0" in a box with the fine side underneath and untouched, the coarse side on top very hollowed out. I guess used to regularly sharpen an axe, and in fact just the job.
Never seen a "lily white" stone except white Arkansas, but other colours/shades (makers?) are common

 

[D_W]

Never seen a "lily white" stone except white Arkansas, but other colours/shades (makers?) are common

They are white when they're unused. As soon as they are used, they will take on a different color due to the oil initially (more yellowish tint) and especially as substandard older oils oxidize, and also gray speckled appearance from metal staining.

if the top of a stone is lapped off as was traditionally done (rotating wheel and silica grit), or with a brand new diamond hone and water plus soap, it would go back to white.

so do most norton soft arkansas stones. the color descriptions after that are overstatements. rosy red washita generally have small hints of color to fairly brilliant dots, but are mostly white.

 

[raffo]

Freshly lapped some Washitas are white, the one on top in this picture is a very good stone, I assume it's a coarse Lilly White grade. I made a mahogany box for this one too.

The one below is another washita, on the reddish side, it's not as aggressive as the one on top, "harder". It's the same stone as the one in my post yesterday. I prefer the stone at the top of the picture.

 

[mikej460]

I have always used oilstones (and made two lidded boxes with stop ends for them) until I watched Mr Sellars make his 3 diamond stone board, so I made one using Vaunt stones. It is very useful and quick to use but there is just something about oilstones that I like. At college I re-ground a set of old chisels and a huge frame parer on a large horizontal, motor driven grindstone. It had a jig and the 25 degree angles were perfect.

 

[gold_bantam]

I was thinking of sticking my fine India in with linseed putty since it's not a combination stone. If I did use the end blocks, when it comes to flattening, do you think the diamond stone or lapping grit on glass would abrade the end blocks easily with the stone. I don't want to make flattening a chore because of the end grain blocks if that makes sense?

 

[Jacob]

I was thinking of sticking my fine India in with linseed putty since it's not a combination stone. If I did use the end blocks, when it comes to flattening, do you think the diamond stone or lapping grit on glass would abrade the end blocks easily with the stone. I don't want to make flattening a chore because of the end grain blocks if that makes sense?

Some over thinking going on here!
If you want to get into oil stones a lot of modern sharpening ideas are out. No flattening, lapping, grit on glass, end blocks, jigs etc..... and a lot of other stuff!

 

[D_W]

I was thinking of sticking my fine India in with linseed putty since it's not a combination stone. If I did use the end blocks, when it comes to flattening, do you think the diamond stone or lapping grit on glass would abrade the end blocks easily with the stone. I don't want to make flattening a chore because of the end grain blocks if that makes sense?

Yes, the diamond hone will abrade the end blocks.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

 

[D_W]

I won't delve into microscope pictures, but have disproven some things in terms of diamond abrading stones and whether that will threaten fineness (as in, if you condition the surface of the stones with a diamond hone - espcially the india and natural ark stones, you won't be losing much or any edge quality, but you will probably gain a good bit of speed honing).

you can ignore most of what jacob is saying - the older texts talk about the requirement for care in keeping stones flat if you are going to do high quality work. they don't obligate you to do it if you're sharpening axes or doing carpentry, but for cabinetmaking, care in keeping the stones flat is prescribed.

it doesn't need to be prissy or time consuming, just don't worry about pretending misshapen stones were somehow done by and used by someone with greater skill. they weren't.

 

[lee celtic]

This might be a bit long.. sorry..

When I was 16 (1983) I got offered a place at The school of Furniture in Manchester.. (central collage) I was excited to go but my Mum and Dad were separated and I was living on a friends sofa and had zero cash.. I'd told my Uncle and he had told My Dad as I wasn't seeing him back then.. Anyway a few days Later a brown paper potato sack appears with my name on it and inside were around thirty brand new oilstones wrapped in newspaper.. It turned out my Dad knew a guy who worked at Carborundum in Old Trafford and after a meeting in the pub the stones had been handed over.. Now let me be clear they were not stolen, the friend of my Dad worked in sales and was given stones as samples to tout around dealers and these were his samples.. They were every colour and grit you could think of..

After starting the first term I sold many of the doubles. triples in the collection to the lecturers ( Jack Hill and Bob Hill) to help finance my material bills.

I still have a fare number of the stones, Three are in wooden handmade boxes and are kept for final hone and backing off.

I have another three courser stones I keep in sealed plastic tubs for first hand grind after using the wheel..

And I have a collection I've added to over the years of shaped, broken and abused stones I keep for honing up carving gouges and other edged tools that are not flat.

I have no idea what grit any of these stones are as they came with no information I just use the one that feels right for the job.

I was taught to use a flat wheel for first grind but I don't have space for a dedicated machine so I cobbled up a home made version using a 6" grinding wheel off a bench grinder with a bolt through the centre mounted in a pillar drill, I have a plywood surround that mounts to the drill stand and a honing guide fixed to that so a chisel can be mounted in it and the blade moved across the full width of the stone, on the drills lowest setting and using any engine oil I have lying around it only takes a few seconds to to get a flat grind and almost no heat..

Then I move to a course flat stone to polish off machine marks again using a honing guide.. then a smoother stone to get a smooth clean first angle..

After this is my favourite part.. with a good stone and without a guide I add a few drips of oil to the stone.. seat the blade down with the handle low then rock the blade forwards until you see the oil 'bulge' out from the end (first grind is flat on the stone) lift the handle a few mill to add the cutting angle the hit the figure 8 taking in the edges and working the full length of the stone.. I do a few up and downs then turn the stone and repeat.. flip over the blade and with it flat on the stone draw back a couple of times before stropping on the palm of my hand to release the micro bur on the cutting edge,

Then as said by someone here higher up the thread I hold to the light.. A butcher once said to me if you can see the cutting edge it's not sharp..

I have some really nice broken stones I keep for chisels less then 1/4 inch and I have a good few 3 for a tenner Eblag stones I use just for flatting the edges , bevels and tops of pitted chisels I'm restoring they don't last but then they get used on axes and mower blades.. lol

I guess the way I look at it is a stone is a stone.. if it's working for the job your doing and getting a good result then great.. if not change the stone and don't be afraid to try something new.. Hope that wasn't too dull..

 

[gold_bantam]

Thanks, very interesting. When you say flat grind off the wheel I'm guessing you mean that it's a barely noticeable hollow? Then are you creating a true flat grind on the course oilstone?

I'm very unfamiliar with the hollow grind method because I've only ever done freehand macrocambers. But I will try it out when I get a chance and see which method I prefer.

This might be a bit long.. sorry..

When I was 16 (1983) I got offered a place at The school of Furniture in Manchester.. (central collage) I was excited to go but my Mum and Dad were separated and I was living on a friends sofa and had zero cash.. I'd told my Uncle and he had told My Dad as I wasn't seeing him back then.. Anyway a few days Later a brown paper potato sack appears with my name on it and inside were around thirty brand new oilstones wrapped in newspaper.. It turned out my Dad knew a guy who worked at Carborundum in Old Trafford and after a meeting in the pub the stones had been handed over.. Now let me be clear they were not stolen, the friend of my Dad worked in sales and was given stones as samples to tout around dealers and these were his samples.. They were every colour and grit you could think of..

After starting the first term I sold many of the doubles. triples in the collection to the lecturers ( Jack Hill and Bob Hill) to help finance my material bills.

I still have a fare number of the stones, Three are in wooden handmade boxes and are kept for final hone and backing off.

I have another three courser stones I keep in sealed plastic tubs for first hand grind after using the wheel..

And I have a collection I've added to over the years of shaped, broken and abused stones I keep for honing up carving gouges and other edged tools that are not flat.

I have no idea what grit any of these stones are as they came with no information I just use the one that feels right for the job.

I was taught to use a flat wheel for first grind but I don't have space for a dedicated machine so I cobbled up a home made version using a 6" grinding wheel off a bench grinder with a bolt through the centre mounted in a pillar drill, I have a plywood surround that mounts to the drill stand and a honing guide fixed to that so a chisel can be mounted in it and the blade moved across the full width of the stone, on the drills lowest setting and using any engine oil I have lying around it only takes a few seconds to to get a flat grind and almost no heat..

Then I move to a course flat stone to polish off machine marks again using a honing guide.. then a smoother stone to get a smooth clean first angle..

After this is my favourite part.. with a good stone and without a guide I add a few drips of oil to the stone.. seat the blade down with the handle low then rock the blade forwards until you see the oil 'bulge' out from the end (first grind is flat on the stone) lift the handle a few mill to add the cutting angle the hit the figure 8 taking in the edges and working the full length of the stone.. I do a few up and downs then turn the stone and repeat.. flip over the blade and with it flat on the stone draw back a couple of times before stropping on the palm of my hand to release the micro bur on the cutting edge,

Then as said by someone here higher up the thread I hold to the light.. A butcher once said to me if you can see the cutting edge it's not sharp..

I have some really nice broken stones I keep for chisels less then 1/4 inch and I have a good few 3 for a tenner Eblag stones I use just for flatting the edges , bevels and tops of pitted chisels I'm restoring they don't last but then they get used on axes and mower blades.. lol

I guess the way I look at it is a stone is a stone.. if it's working for the job your doing and getting a good result then great.. if not change the stone and don't be afraid to try something new.. Hope that wasn't too dull..

 

[lee celtic]

Thanks, very interesting. When you say flat grind off the wheel I'm guessing you mean that it's a barely noticeable hollow? Then are you creating a true flat grind on the course oilstone?

I'm very unfamiliar with the hollow grind method because I've only ever done freehand macrocambers. But I will try it out when I get a chance and see which method I prefer.

No I mean the 6" grinding disc is in a drill stand and my chisel is being ground on the side of the wheel not the edge.. thus gives me a flat grind as the disc is horizontal not vertical..

 

[raffo]

Thanks, very interesting. When you say flat grind off the wheel I'm guessing you mean that it's a barely noticeable hollow? Then are you creating a true flat grind on the course oilstone?

I'm very unfamiliar with the hollow grind method because I've only ever done freehand macrocambers. But I will try it out when I get a chance and see which method I prefer.

I would not follow the advise to use the side of a grinding wheel. It is not recommended by their manufacturers, it's a safety hazard.

You can use the bench grinder to remove most of the metal to create the primary bevel of a chisel or plane iron. The rest of the grinding finish with a coarse stone, and finish with a fine stone. Take your time and be careful with some of what you're being told here.

 

[lee celtic]

not recommended by their manufacturers... and yet it happens...

 

[frogesque]

Horrific! Not only using the side of the wheel, (okish up to about 6 mm dia for very light grinding) but that jigged set up will go round the workshop like a rocked closely followed by wheel shrapnel if the drill digs in. The work should always be below wheel centre unless using a very solid tool rest.

 

[gold_bantam]

Just thought I'd send an update. I'm very much enjoying the fine India stone. It definitely took some getting used to after the diamond stone system but I'm very impressed by the edges it leaves. I always noticed that the diamond stones left a sticky sharp edge and I always assumed this was the top end of sharp. So I when I didn't get that with the fine India I started to panic a little. But when I sliced through end grain with it I was astounded. I believe now that the oilstone is leaving a smooth edge whereas the diamond was more serrated?

I am still using the extra coarse diamond stone for grinding the whole bevel and then just doing the edge with the fine India and then a charged strop. I did come across a coarse India stone for a good price so took it as a possible replacement for the diamond stone when it gets too worn. This brings me to my question of whether you guys think it's OK to use my broken in extra coarse DMT plate for conditioning the oilstone surface, given that I need it to grind my tool edges too? I have read in a couple of places that oilstones will quickly wear good quality plates, so use cheaper ones. But ideally I don't want to keep accumulating extra kit. I'm not too worried about flattening because I know the stones are hard and I am always trying to use all the surface. Just for keeping them cutting well. Cheap diamond plates seem hit and miss and the 3M diapad is fairly expensive.

Thanks again for all your advice. Really pleased so far that I made the switch!

 

[raffo]

You're in the UK, aren't you?
Boxed Washitas are not uncommon nor expensive on UK Ebay.