newbie chisel sharpening question

[D_W]

Brent Beach sure can make something that should be really easy look and seem really complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hm4HiN2Lww

At 1:20, this guy does all you need to do - check the bevel on the grinder and see if it's going where you want it to.

If you're grinding something you honed and you want it to be ground a bit more shallow next time, adjust as needed. Same if steeper.

It helps a lot to learn to hone without relying on honing on the flats, too, then it really doesn't matter if the grind is 24 or 26 or or 27 degrees or whatever.

It also helps if you have a strong rest that can be set mostly tight that you can tap to adjust with a block of wood or whatever is being ground. Then you're never looking for a third hand or putting a tool down to adjust angles.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Dave, at the 1:20 mark he demonstrates scratching the bevel with the wheel, as I mentioned earlier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

Dave, at the 1:20 mark he demonstrates scratching the bevel with the wheel, as I mentioned earlier.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Exactly what I was referring to. When I first starting freehanding, I watched this video (i think it was new at the time). I had a grinder that didn't have very good rests, and that was a worthwhile tip. Far less confusing than trying to worry about getting something right to a degree of accuracy.

 

[swagman]

DW; lets hope this doesn't lead to a heated debate on the merits of free hand sharpening vs using a jig. Both methods offer their own distinct advantage.

regard Stewie;

 

[D_W]

Yes, jig sharpening gives you something to do until you can sharpen well freehand.

Same principle applies to grinding - if you invest in the skill of grinding as a hand-eye operation, then an overcomplicated solution isn't needed for every subsequent simple problem (like grinding skew irons or narrow tools).

 

[swagman]

DW; you just proved my point.

regards Stewie;

 

[bugbear]

Begun, the sharpening wars have...

BugBear

 

[essexalan]

Yes, jig sharpening gives you something to do until you can sharpen well freehand.

Same principle applies to grinding - if you invest in the skill of grinding as a hand-eye operation, then an overcomplicated solution isn't needed for every subsequent simple problem (like grinding skew irons or narrow tools).

I suppose you could say that grinding on an electric grinder gives you something to do until you learn to grind by hand, gives you lots of extra time to make tea though.
Grinding a concave primary has probably been done since man invented the sandstone grinding wheel so it has a history of actually working. Proponents of the convex bevel I can't understand perhaps one of them could explain the process especially the one who uses an Edge Pro, can you get a special rounded bevel jig for one of those? To the OP I would say flatten the backs of your chisels, you only have to do it once, get a simple jig and grind a 25 degree primary then hone a 30 degree secondary bevel. You will then have a tool fit for purpose and it should be sharp enough which is the important bit. Freehand sharpening is indeed quite easy especially if you have an electric grinder, you could probably learn it in about ten minutes or even less especially with all the jigs fitted to these grinders.

 

[swagman]

Begun, the sharpening wars have...

BugBear

BB; Count me out of a heated debate. Its not worth the spent energy.

Stewie;

 

[D_W]

Begun, the sharpening wars have...

BugBear

I'm just pulling legs

 

[bugbear]

Begun, the sharpening wars have...

BugBear

I'm just pulling legs

I think you're an idiot.

Only Joking.

Maybe.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Begun, the sharpening wars have...

BugBear

I'm just pulling legs

I think you're an idiot.

Only Joking.

Maybe.

BugBear

I guess it's sort of like making a political joke in a room full of dueling partisans.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Proponents of the convex bevel I can't understand perhaps one of them could explain the process especially the one who uses an Edge Pro, can you get a special rounded bevel jig for one of those? .

No mystery, I use a Pro edge for grinding and hone free hand. I don't aim for a convex bevel but if you hone free hand it is an inevitable consequence. A truly flat surface does not exist and there is no way of getting a concave bevel from a flat stone. Mostly I don't grind but every now and then, if the blade is chipped or if I feel that I have been lifting too much to get the wire edge I will grind the bevel to 25 degrees till I get to just before the edge, and then hone on my diamond stones and strop. I do the entire bevel when I hone and I suppose it must be a little convex.
Not saying that anyone else should do it this way, but it really doesn't take long and the blades are sharp enough for purpose (slice though end grain, plane difficult timber etc..)

To the OP I'd say do the scratch test and grind your chisel then use a honing guide at 30 degrees, you will get reliable repeatable results. When this is second nature you may wish to try freehand, if you can sharpen as well freehand as with a honing guide then you can give the guide away.
Paddy

 

[D_W]

I have never understood the fascination with putting a flat bevel on knives when they are wedge shaped and easy to sharpen by hand to a convex curve. If the edge needs to be thinner, the convex curve is closer to the grind. If the edge needs to be more blunt, then further from the grind. Is that a "thing" on knife forums, to have a flat bevel is needed for something?

 

[essexalan]

Agree a totally flat bevel is very hard to attain freehand but there is a difference between what you are doing and deliberately setting out to get a convex edge. You are using diamond stones which are supposed to be flat for a good reason. Stropping the edge will round it anyway. Those Pro Edge things sound the business though must ask Santa I want one.

Some knives have a zero grind on both sides like a Deba for instance so you have nice big wide bevels to sharpen which will be flat on both sides. Heavy duty knives and cleavers do have a rounded bevel by design. Not sure why there is this insistence on a flat bevel but I do find that just a stroke or two will raise a burr when you are hitting or totally missing the bevel, I usually go by memory muscle, feel and sound and can only aspire for flat bevels. I think the knife and razor boys go a little bit far though.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

I've heard it said before that stropping dubs the edge, maybe, I don't know. What I do know is that a chisel or plane iron that I have sharpened performs better if I strop it. Could be that someone better at sharpening or worse at stropping gets a different result.
I love the proedge, a lot of money for a little belt sander, but I would buy it again

 

[sploo]

I've heard it said before that stropping dubs the edge, maybe, I don't know. What I do know is that a chisel or plane iron that I have sharpened performs better if I strop it. Could be that someone better at sharpening or worse at stropping gets a different result.
I love the proedge, a lot of money for a little belt sander, but I would buy it again

The ProEdge is superb for turning tools. I've not used it on a chisel or plane iron though as I prefer to freehand those on diamond plates.

Agreed on stropping too - I don't do it with turning tools, but it seems to help the planes and chisels.

 

[D_W]

I've heard it said before that stropping dubs the edge, maybe, I don't know. What I do know is that a chisel or plane iron that I have sharpened performs better if I strop it. Could be that someone better at sharpening or worse at stropping gets a different result.
I love the proedge, a lot of money for a little belt sander, but I would buy it again

I'm sure it does with compound, but with bare leather, it doesn't do that much other than rip the trash off of the edge and burnish what's left. It's excellent practice with natural stones, and it doesn't hurt with others.

I have shaved with straight razors that came right off of a cutting compound and it's not very nice compared to finishing with a strop, but a razor is a bit different in terms of operation because you need an edge better than you need on any tool, and the envelope that you operate in with it is very narrow (and with proper care, the need to rehone is seldom).

 

[Fitzroy]

I usually go by memory muscle, feel and sound and can only aspire for flat bevels.

When I got the hang of freehand sharpening it was the sound that was key for me. As you increase the angle of the chisel/iron whilst moving it there is a clear audible change as the edge engages with the abrasive.

F.

 

[essexalan]

I was talking about a loaded strop usually 1 micron diamond on basswood, if you can call that a strop, with care you can finish an edge nicely with that. Finishing on leather definitely adds that extra touch but I am not sure it is always worth it. Asking for a piece of horse butt in the UK will get you some very funny looks and the cost plus P&P from the US is ridiculous. Thinking about the knife edge I would say that the thinner the knife behind the cutting edge the better within reason. A rounded bevel will be as sharp but will wedge quicker than a flat bevel hence the reason you need to thin out the knife behind the bevel after some sharpening sessions. Worse type of produce for this would be cabbage or squash where you can end up forcing a knife through the cut, some knives are better at cutting this sort of stuff than others. Best thing for cutting cheese is a cheese wire or a very thin knife.