New workshop build, with a difference!

[Dibs-h]

Hi Dibs, the roof angles are, upper chord - 18.5°, lower chord - 60°. We just get away with the upper chord angle with respect to asphalt shingles. We did have a steeper upper angle
but it affects the balance between the two and looks disproportionate. It’s a tricky thing to get right when one is constrained to 4m in height.

Having seen commercially built gambrel sheds (in the USA , on the web) they use 4 x 2 for the whole construction and no collar ties, just relying on the gussets. Also, our conservatory is 4m square and that has one 10mm rod in the middle, and double glazing weighs far more than our proposed roof. From the experience at our last house we know that building regs are way over the top, to almost CYA levels (I could bore you, but I won’t). I remember Mike Garnham remonstrating with a shed builder who put one length of wire in the middle to hold it together and even he only suggested two more of the same, albeit better applied.
I do appreciate your concern though and thanks for that. It may well be that we will have to stiffen the roof if things start to move, especially with a overhang at each end. Preferably before it flies away :shock: .
As the build progresses I would appreciate your input if you see anything you think is a bit iffy. Nothing is fixed in stone, perhaps it should be round here

Reading your build, I came to the impression that you must be built like Garth, especially when you mentioned removing a c/h boiler that weighed 100kg, on your own. Could you please post us some muscles as you must have some to spare :lol:

What a shame you couldn’t have the design you wanted because of where you live, hopefully there are other compensations to living in a Conservation Area.

Regards....Dick.

Hi Dick,

I know what you mean about dis-proportionate looks, bit of a balancing act. :wink: Especially when cost enters the equation.

Thankfully the cords can be added later if you feel it isn't stiff enough. The loading on your roof will be minor compared to say Rosemary tiles or Concrete tiles, which allows for lighter construction. As for input - no probs there.

Boiler - thankfully that was before my accident prone stage. My head still hurts from the whack it got from a clamp on Sat. I'm so grateful there isn't a bruise - so no quizzical looks from colleagues and phrases like "Poor thing, must be hard putting up with domestic violence. Bet the wife whacked him with a pan!" in muted voices.

Conservation area - I live in one too, and I've had zero issues with the Planners and I do prefer it, no monstrosities (or poor taste) anytime soon.

Dibs

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi folks,

Next phase, now showing at a Mac/PC near you.

The next job was to lower and level inside the blocks - more pick axing of embedded gravel/rubble to allow for sand blinding and 100mm of concrete.

Compacted and ready for sand blinding.

After the hernia inducing blocklaying fun, it is now over to the boss for the bricklaying section.We have never been very fast at this task and we have divined that it is down to firstly, not making the mortar sloppy enough and secondly, not getting an even bed of mortar. To this end, we invested in a Bricky...standby for howls of derision from pro brickies. Watching the videos for this product showed us that we were right about the too stiff mix. However, in practice, it still took a bit of courage to keep adding more water. Having completed the first row, we now feel more confident about it.

The Bricky, for us, has proved invaluable as we have laid bricks far more quickly than ever before. This is due to the uniform bed to place the bricks on.

First row finished

Prior to laying the sand and DPM we constructed a young roof to support tarpaulins to try and stop it becoming a paddling pool. Which incidentally was an abject failure and we ended up pumping it out with an Aquavac, a good piece of equipment. The battens were sized so that they could be reused as the external battens for the walls and not be wasted.

The sand was laid and rolled flat followed by the DPM laid over and joined in the middle with Visqueen joining strip, another good quality product not worth cheapskating on I feel.
Then the rebar....(sorry, too much USA interweb) reinforcing mesh had it’s little 50mm stand off feet wired on, what a nice job to do...not. And it gets heavy with all those feet on. We needed three rows so they had to be overlapped so that they could be wired together to make a uniform whole. That made them very thick at multiple joins, so we angle ground the third overlaps off to reduce the bulk. See the finished job below.

We were able to borrow a tamping bar and Bull Buffer from a new local friend, thanks Hubert. Wait for a clear forecast and go for it; we got lucky and Evans Above..the god of rain in Wales was offered Bara Brith as appeasement. (Had we been in Yorkshire it would have been Earnshore to whom parkin is offered, don’t laugh, it worked ‘mostly’ when we camped there for many years).
And so to the disaster that was the slab cast. We had finally bitten off more than we could chew. There were only the two of us and the lorry driver..big mistake. It needs three strong men, and we weren’t them. The driver gave a hand, for which we were very grateful; unfortunately we didn’t get the concrete quite down to the DPM for some reason, it looked ok. We then compounded the problem by putting some extra concrete in the big barrow(220ltrs) ‘just in case’. Having given the driver a good drink for digging us out of the ordure, we waved him off and went back for a final pass with the tamper. The small extra height soon mounted up and spilled over the edges, so we were now wading in it. At this point Evens Above decided, mistakenly, that we required more Sun and turned the tap full on. He evidently didn’t know that concrete has to cure, not set/dry.

We had to wade in and remove concrete as there was so much that the bar refused to move any more, thus increasing the puddle round the edge. At this point we decided that we had to clear the decks before we became permanent fixtures. Then back to tamping by which time we were ‘dead men walking’ having run out of steam some time before. Having levelled it quite well and having installed the Simpson Strong Ties, we stopped for lunch before we fell face down in it. Thanks to Evans contribution, not to mention how long this palaver took, by the time we got back it was too late to buff it properly, doh! The finished top is satisfactory but not to the standard we hoped to achieve i.e smooth as a baby’s bum. Hey ho..but we learned a lot in a very short time.

You are now up to date with the project so far. We are now waiting for Evens to get his act together and give us some dryness so we can carry on bricking.

Regards...Dick.

 

[Dibs-h]

Dick

Bit late - but what's the overlap of the mesh? I was told to overlap a min of 0.5m, which is more than the 1 square, which is what yours looks like. Come to think of it as your base is just a floor and not an integral part of the foundations you should be ok.

We had our concrete pumped and spread - worth every bit of the £250 I paid. With me and a mate just tamping\smoothing it. Having a vibrating poker certainly helps. Having said that - it was a hot day when the raft was done and later that evening, the inside thigh muscles in both legs cramped - bloody painful I can tell you!

I have to salute you and the Mrs for doing the work - there's many a person who wouldn't do it.

I would say tho - having kit makes it so much easier. For the timber framing - get an impact driver and 3" screws in the 1000's. Easy to adjust if you aren't happy with it, safer than a nailgun and quicker than nailing by hand (and easier on the thumbs).

Dibs

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi Dibs,

Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom

As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer.

Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.

This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.

Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Dibs,

Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom

As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer.

Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.

This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.

Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.

Blimey been an expensive day!

As for the living room - I know what you mean - but in my case it's all over the house & our house ain't small. :wink:

Graham's do a reasonable price on Festool gear, but my local dealer beat them by throwing more extra's in. I'd check out the local Festool dealer tho.

Screws - 3" Nbr 10's are more than up to the job, especially as in almost all cases you'll be "toe nailing". I feel 4" screws might just be a waste of money. Shop around as well.

I use a local firm - I'll confirm the price for you in the morning, but I buy them by the case - i.e. an outer, which must have a x thousand in there. Can't remember how many - but it was massively cheaper than say 2k from Screwfix.

As for bits - Dewalt\Makita tubs are cheap as chips. Warning - when using an impact driver I would always wear safety specs - at some point, it will shear the end of the bit and you really don't need that flying off.

Dibs

 

[flying haggis]

Hi Dibs,

Thanks for the concern and advice. Trying to find info on the overlap was limited to just one, the ’paving expert.com’, a very useful site. They suggested 350mm which is what we did. By the time it had been wired together it was pretty stiff; it withstood my mighty 82kg jumping on it. Ok, at that weight, I was just as likely to slip through the squares, but I have a lot turned over at the bottom

As to having the right kit, we recently bought a twin set of Makita lion drill drivers, one of which is an impact driver, strewth, they are fast, and take a bit of getting used to, but great tools. I totally agree about using screws. I was going to use 100mm x 6mm thus giving a good 50mm hold. Some time back I helped my next door neighbour roof an 80 ft barn with galvanised sheet, banging nails directly through. By the end of the day I couldn’t lift the hammer.

Today has been a very dangerous day. We went to the Summer show at Graham’s Machinery in Chester. Boy, I know how to give a girl a good time. They made us an offer on a bandsaw and tablesaw; a total saving of £150...result. Having paid for the new toys I suggested to the sales assistant that he may need to get the first aider, as we were about to look at the Festool stand. Looking was a bad move. It’s great kit and there is an upcoming offer on the track saw where they ‘throw in’ two 1400mm tracks and joiners. It looks like I might be getting an early Christmas present as we will have a lot of large board cutting to do, both during ‘the build’ and after (not one storage cupboard in the house, as yet). Perhaps I should just go and lay down in a dark room till the madness passes.

This now means that we will have to rearrange the furniture in the living room to accommodate the new kit, as well as the planer thicknesser and dust extractor that are already there :roll: Surely everyone’s wife allows that ....don’t they? :wink: After all they have only been there a year.

Back to bricking tomorrow.....Dick.

Blimey been an expensive day!

As for the living room - I know what you mean - but in my case it's all over the house & our house ain't small. :wink:

Graham's do a reasonable price on Festool gear, but my local dealer beat them by throwing more extra's in. I'd check out the local Festool dealer tho.

Screws - 3" Nbr 10's are more than up to the job, especially as in almost all cases you'll be "toe nailing". I feel 4" screws might just be a waste of money. Shop around as well.

I use a local firm - I'll confirm the price for you in the morning, but I buy them by the case - i.e. an outer, which must have a x thousand in there. Can't remember how many - but it was massively cheaper than say 2k from Screwfix.

As for bits - Dewalt\Makita tubs are cheap as chips. Warning - when using an impact driver I would always wear safety specs - at some point, it will shear the end of the bit and you really don't need that flying off.

Dibs

makita tubs of screwdriver bits available on e-bay like these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAKITA-P-49971-10 ... 4152da0211

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi Dibs, Grahams is my nearest dealer; the joys of rural living. So who is your local dealer and does he deliver? As it happens, the frame will be screwed directly from the top and bottom plates, hence the 100mm screws. Why swing one granny when I can swing two (if you’re familiar with the phrase).

I notice that the Screwfix tubs of 2500 only go up to 50mm in length? Will do some research.
Thanks for warning about shattering the bits. As it happens, when we bought the gear, the salesman let us try out the impact driver as I hadn’t used one before. He also warned us about the problems associated as well and advised buying the titanium bits which might lessen the chance of splitting, and would be longer lasting, given the force.

Hello flying haggis, thanks for your interest and the link. Beware, these particular bits would fall out of an impact driver, as they require the 50mm long bits with the indent for the retaining mechanism. Guess how I found out :roll:
This is the correct type, possibly available cheaper elsewhere.

http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.ph ... sn/P-65779

Thanks for the help so far.......Dick.

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello people,
As it’s raining again, thanks Evans Above, I thought it an opportunity to give the costings so far.

Footings - 1cu/m £110.03
Slab - 3.5cu/m £392.41
Blocks x 56 £62.51
Bricks x 452 (1pallet) £95.6
DPM - 4m x 25m £35.25
Reinforcing Mesh x 5 sheets £21.80
Mesh supports x 100 £70.50
Simpson straps x 12 £38.78
Building sand - 2 bulk bags £63.45
Cement - 10 bags £37.52
Sundries - Brickie/addmix/etc £147.57

An eye watering...£1075.42, just to get to four courses of brick above the ground.
This shed building lark isn’t for the faint hearted, or the shallow walleted. There is no way that I could have afforded this when I had a young family....that is, from birth to leaving home/uni. This was brought home when we went to Grahams show, I was the youngest white haired old git there
Rain is forecast for tomorrow as well, so, it will be at least Monday before we can start again on the brickwork :x Will I ever get to the wood stage?

Regards....Dick

 

[Mattty]

Beware, these particular bits would fall out of an impact driver, as they require the 50mm long bits with the indent for the retaining mechanism. Guess how I found out :roll:
This is the correct type, possibly available cheaper elsewhere.

http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/item.ph ... sn/P-65779

Thanks for the help so far.......Dick.

Dick,
You can just put a standard bit holder in the impact driver then you dont need the long bits. Most of them have the indent you refer too.
Personally i wouldnt go to the expence of using titanium bits either. Just buy a tub of decent pozi bits like the makita or dewalt ones and be prepared to replace it every so often. HTH

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi matty,and flying haggis. I think that the weather must have rusted what was left of what passes for my brain. I have several magnetic bit holders; so why didn't I think of that? Definitely a d'oh moment. Thanks for reminding me of the blindingly obvious, and saving me a few pennies too. Mind you, the 'loose' ordinary bit in an impact driver has got me out of trouble when standard drill drivers were too big. I have even used the impact driver to drill holes in tight spaces....with very careful trigger control I might add.

Regards...Dick.

 

[Dibs-h]

Dick

I have a few local dealers - PM me what you are after and I'll get you a price and see what they'll throw in. They all send stuff out by courier so getting it to you isn't a problem.

To give you an idea - I bought

- A domino (full set)
- systainer full of Doms (including the full set of cutters)
- 2 x 1400 rails (for my Ts55)

Paid about list for them - but they threw in the following,

- the big padded bag for the rails & accessories
- 2 connectors for the rails
- 2 clamps.

Probably in the region of £175 worth of extras. So can't complain.

As Matty has said - use a std mag bit holder and Dewalt\Makita bits - that's what I use, bits last a while and always keep a few in the pocket.

I think you've done well getting all that for £1k - just to slab level mine was almost twice that - but I did have a ton of steel and almost 15m3 of C35 and 2 lots of pump hire. But then again my foundations weren't your average run of the mill ones. :wink: 3" screws - I pay arouund £20/thousand - so aim for something along those lines.

HIH

Dibs

p.s. When it comes to stud work - pay attention to which way the crowns are - otherwise fitting ply or plaster boards them will be a pain! :wink:

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi dibs, Thanks for the offer, apparently, there will be a festool deal coming soon where they throw in two 1400 rails. So, if you don’t mind, I will take up your kind offer when it is running. You certainly did very well with yours.
I still can’t believe that I forgot about using the mag bit holder in the impact driver, it’s a lot cheaper on bits.
Might I ask where you get your screws from, as I can’t find any at that sort of price?

Thanks for the studwork tip; I had seen somewhere on the web about this, they suggested alternating the crowns in/out to average the end result. Without this, one could end up with a concave/convex wall...nice. Isn’t it grand to be able to buy such good quality timber?
Apparently this even happens in America these days, where you would think they would have the best.

Whilst I am aware of some of the tips, I won’t know them all, so don’t lose faith, they are appreciated.

Regards, Dick.

 

[Mattty]

Dick,
I use boat loads of these for general joinery and they are very good. Not as flashy as reisser or wurth but a 1/4 of the cost.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+ ... /d90/sd760

 

[Dibs-h]

Dick,
I use boat loads of these for general joinery and they are very good. Not as flashy as reisser or wurth but a 1/4 of the cost.
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Screws+ ... /d90/sd760

http://www.screwsline.co.uk/twin_thread ... ws_csk.php

My local outfit charges £19+vat per thousand for Nbr 10x3" - these lot are even cheaper and even with delivery added (which is at cost) still cheaper for 1k screws. 1 thousand screws don't last as long as you think! :wink:

HIH

Dibs

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi matty and dibs, many thanks for the above links, they are certainly good prices, which I will be making use of soon.
I find it 'interesting' when searching for info on the web. It is so dependent on the wording used. It also seems dependent on the vehicle; I use firefox but Diane uses safari. We get quite different results. And there was me thinking that metadata was metadata?

The dwarf wall build (a massive four courses) is moving along, but slowly, due partly to the weather, and our inability to lay bricks quickly.....two sides done to date.

Regards..Dick.

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello all,

We have finally finished the dwarf wall that supports the workshop.
Between inclement weather and our slow brick laying, it has taken far too long.
But, measuring the diagonals, there is only 4mm difference. In my book, that’s a result.
The trouble now is that we have a paddling pool. Anyone fancy the new Olympic sport of underwater frame construction? :lol:

We have just worked out that we need just short of 5000 screws for this build.
No wonder dibs and matty kindly offered links to cheap suppliers, instead of screwfix. They have saved me a fair amount of money. Thanks for that.

The sharp eyed amongst you might have noticed a major concession to H & S, in that we have taped corks to the tops of the steel ties. One near miss as I bent down was enough.

In true Canute style we have attempted to keep out the worst of the weather, see pic below. At least it will limit the time taken using the aquavac; providing that it doesn’t turn into a spinnaker and take off down the drive that is.

In true project management style, the bandsaw and table saw turn up tomorrow.
Just ready to reside in the front room...along with the planer/thicknesser and DX 5000 extractor. I am beginning to think that it would be easier to make the workshop the living room and leave all the gear where it is. Just think, no going outside in the wet to get to the workshop!

Now for the good bit, ordering loads of warped and twisted timber. Doesn’t sound good but that is the reality these days....even in the USA it seems. Never mind, it will probably be so wet that it won’t be warped. Me cynical, never.

Onwards and upwards.....to infinity and be......... I think my medication is wearing off.

Regards...Dick..

 

[wobblycogs]

I often stick corks to the top of garden canes for exactly the same reason you've corked the steel ties but it just occurred to me that that with something like the ties a quicker solution might be to just drop old squash or fizzy drinks bottles over the top. I don't think they would blow away and there would be less fiddly to fit and take off.

Great build, I'm amazed how quickly you are getting it done. It seems to take me ages to do stuff like this, I console myself with the fact that I'm normally happy with the end result.

 

[Dibs-h]

Dick

Nice to see it coming along! Yeah - you kinda loose track as to how many screws you end up using.

I'm putting up the inner stud walls on mine - and at the end , before I fit the noggins, if I want to make an adjustment, dead easy. Somehow don't think it would be the case with nails. :wink:

I use a local timber yard for all my timber and I have to say that all the regularised 4"x2" I've bought, hardly had a twist in them, but then I load it myself and therefore select the pieces. Almost all of mine is C24 and I'm paying around £1.40/m which is probably reasonable, but have yet to bin a piece because it was so warped I could use it.

The one thing I've leaned when collecting lumber & it seems to apply in the sheds too - don't pick pieces that are on the outside of the bundle. These will have differentially dried and as such if they haven't bowed\twisted they will a day after you get them home! :wink:

Dibs

 

[Cegidfa]

Hello wobbly cogs, thats a good idea, although they would be a ‘cut to fit’ at the neck, as the ties are 38mm wide. Milk bottles could be good too, as we don’t have much in the way of squash. Pity wine bottles have such narrow necks; for some reason we seem to have a lot to choose from :smile: hence the use of corks, which we save for starting the fire in winter. Waste not, want not.....ok...I'm a mean sod.
Don’t be too amazed at the speed, we have all day, every day after all. However, two or more weeks of genuflection in gravel is more than enough fun....with a small f, even with knee pads.

Hi dibs, glad to hear that your build is moving on, are we going to see some more pics soon, or is there not sufficient difference to be worth it yet? It is a bit of a faf to get them to the forum.
I take it that you have the means to bring large quantities of timber home, as you can select it yourself? We don’t have the luxury of free choice round here, we get what we get.
Although I could complain if it was too bad, as the people round here are very pleasant and helpful. Not like Champion Timber in Bromley. Known for ever as Champi imber, as some letters were missing from the lorry.
To be fair, all of the timber that I have bought to date, has been ok. But I always joke and ask for ‘straight’ timber, not the B & Q stuff. It seems to work. Our 4 x 2 easy edge and treated(slightly larger than CLS) is the same price as yours, and because I have opened an account at both suppliers, deliveries are free.

It has just started raining and the prospect is for rain until Saturday, so we will be unloading the new toys, and the first lot of wood in the rain......deep joy.

TTFN...Dick.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi dibs, glad to hear that your build is moving on, are we going to see some more pics soon, or is there not sufficient difference to be worth it yet? It is a bit of a faf to get them to the forum.
I take it that you have the means to bring large quantities of timber home, as you can select it yourself? We don’t have the luxury of free choice round here, we get what we get.
Although I could complain if it was too bad, as the people round here are very pleasant and helpful. Not like Champion Timber in Bromley. Known for ever as Champi imber, as some letters were missing from the lorry.
To be fair, all of the timber that I have bought to date, has been ok. But I always joke and ask for ‘straight’ timber, not the B & Q stuff. It seems to work. Our 4 x 2 easy edge and treated(slightly larger than CLS) is the same price as yours, and because I have opened an account at both suppliers, deliveries are free.

It has just started raining and the prospect is for rain until Saturday, so we will be unloading the new toys, and the first lot of wood in the rain......deep joy.

TTFN...Dick.

Will probably post some piccies tomorrow - there's that much stuff in there and on one gable wall the studs are almost 4m long, so a bit of faffing about moving them about. Just so looking forward to getting the batt insulation in, get some space back.

The yard is about 1mile away, I usually stick the roof bars on the estate and can comfortably get 20 lengths of 4"x2" on there @ 3m each. I can leave the yard, get home, unload and be back there in 15 mins. With the build so far, it's been 4 runs in total to get all the rafters and studs. Probably 1 more run to go.

Roof bars are awesome - lifesaver. Can get stuff when I want and don't have to wait in for a delivery.

Dibs