New Veritas Combination Plane

[custard]

Useful post Derek, the cross grain work looks incredibly clean.

 

[custard]

...
But here's the catch. A fair percentage of those rebates will be stopped rather than through rebates. ...

Really? Where, why?

Stopped groove. A panel let into a leg.

Stopped housing. A drawer chest with solid sides.

Stopped rebate. A dovetailed cabinet carcase.

 

[knockknock]

...
But here's the catch. A fair percentage of those rebates will be stopped rather than through rebates. ...

Really? Where, why?

Stopped groove. A panel let into a leg.

Stopped housing. A drawer chest with solid sides.

Stopped rebate. A dovetailed cabinet carcase.

Off the top of my head:

1) Stopped groove. A panel let into a leg.

Taper the leg below the bottom rail and optionally fill (the exit of the groove won't be very visible from normal viewing angles). Top of leg and top of top rail flush.

2) Stopped housing. A drawer chest with solid sides.

Dovetail in a face piece drawer divider where the dado exits.

3) Stopped rebate. A dovetailed cabinet carcase.

Half lap the pin/tail where the rabbet is (the pin/tail should be wide to cover the rabbet).

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I might be missing the point here but my understanding of Custard's point was to underscore that using stopped cuts were a faff and time consuming when performed with a plane. So in the production of furniture, professionally, where time consumption is money, why would you go to the time penalty lengths of all those alternatives you've just suggested when a plunge router can provide the efficiency needed and avoid unnecessary tapers, dovetails etc all of which are inefficient in terms of time?

 

[custard]

Wot Bob said!

Knocknock, you're just confirming my original point about, "makers would go to extraordinary lengths to try and minimise the incidence of stopped rebates".

Back in the real world of trying to earn a living from furniture making, I'm going to reach for a Festool OF1400 every single time, it's probably cheaper than this plough!

 

[knockknock]

Okay, I missed the point. In my world, I don't use power tools (except my cordless drill).

 

[Vann]

...None of these planes are suited to plane cross grain as they do not have a nicker to prevent spelching. So enter combo planes such as the Stanley #45, and now the Veritas Combo...

As do the Stanley #50/Record #050 combination planes. But I do like the look of the knicker on this new plane - it looks much easier to use.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[AndyT]

Looking at the user guide, I see that Veritas show a Stanley 45 as the design inspiration. That makes sense - it's something their main market is likely to have heard of and maybe be familiar with. But looking at the pictures, I think it shows more of a family resemblance to the 1980s Record 050C family.

Borrowing one of Derek's pictures for a moment,

and one of my own,

there are several similarities. I'm not saying this to talk down the Veritas offering - I rather like the look of it - but just to agree with recent posts on here where people have appreciated the later Record models.

However, I am pleased that Veritas had the sense not to copy the Record forward-leaning plastic handle!

 

[custard]

I do like the look of the knicker on this new plane - it looks much easier to use.

I think you're right. I've generally found that to be the Achilles Heal of older multi-planes, along with the locking screws.

This is the Stanley 55 that lives in my workshop. As a means of entertainment while waiting for a glue-up to set, it absolutely has no equal. But as a route to hitting a deadline or delivering quality work? Not so much.

Despite plenty of fiddling I've never been able to get the nickers to work consistently or line up exactly with the main cutter, which means the cross grain results are pretty rubbish. However, Derek's housings look as clean as a whistle. The other failing with the 55 is I need to nip everything up with a pair of pliers for it to stay put...and I'm not feeble fingered! Whereas, a pound to a penny, I bet that Veritas tool will lock down tight with just a modest tweak.

Still way too expensive for me, but I wouldn't necessarily try and substitute with an older equivalent either. But hey ho, each to their own, and as I said, for pure entertainment value a super-duper plough knocks Angry Birds into a cocked hat!

 

[Jacob]

Wot Bob said!

Knocknock, you're just confirming my original point about, "makers would go to extraordinary lengths to try and minimise the incidence of stopped rebates".

Back in the real world of trying to earn a living from furniture making, I'm going to reach for a Festool OF1400 every single time, it's probably cheaper than this plough!

My point is - you don't need to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid a stopped rebates, it's easy to design out at the beginning. If you find you need a stopped rebate you have made a design mistake - unless you are a stone mason!
Stopped housings are common (hinge pockets etc), slots less so.
I don't think I've ever encountered a stopped rebate or slot in traditional stuff - I don't think much effort was required to minimise the incidence.

PS re nickers - they are no good as cutters but very useful as markers - the whole tool acts as a marking gauge. Once the rebate is started you don't need nicker or fence, in fact they get in the way - the rebate itself, and the gauge marks, are now the guide.

PPS -without the nicker the cut tends to drift away from the side but this is no prob - the last pass (or two) is from the other direction so you end up with both sides of the rebate planed. I worked this out from looking at window frame rebates which were clearly done with simple woody skew rebate planes with no nickers (or is it knickers? :shock: ). There are loads of them about (often worn right down) as knickerless rebating was a major operation.

 

[G S Haydon]

Congrats, Andy. You did get there first . As a purchase of pure enjoyment, I'm sure the Veritas will be excellent. The individual will be able to choose if it's going to be a good choice. To anyone who's a bit green and starting out, my tip would be don't be in a hurry to purchase one. As others have pointed out, it's unlikely to be needed.

Good spot on the Record - Veritas genes, It seems likely the Record was the foundation.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not convinced that a combination plane would be good for rebating - it's got no sole.

I've used one for ploughing (which it did well) but never for anything else. Anybody tried rebating with one?

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm not convinced that a combination plane would be good for rebating - it's got no sole.

I've used one for ploughing (which it did well) but never for anything else. Anybody tried rebating with one?

I have and it's clumsy at best.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I do like the look of the knicker on this new plane - it looks much easier to use.

I think you're right. I've generally found that to be the Achilles Heal of older multi-planes, along with the locking screws.



This is the Stanley 55 that lives in my workshop. As a means of entertainment while waiting for a glue-up to set, it absolutely has no equal. But as a route to hitting a deadline or delivering quality work? Not so much.

Despite plenty of fiddling I've never been able to get the nickers to work consistently or line up exactly with the main cutter, which means the cross grain results are pretty rubbish. However, Derek's housings look as clean as a whistle. The other failing with the 55 is I need to nip everything up with a pair of pliers for it to stay put...and I'm not feeble fingered! Whereas, a pound to a penny, I bet that Veritas tool will lock down tight with just a modest tweak.

Still way too expensive for me, but I wouldn't necessarily try and substitute with an older equivalent either. But hey ho, each to their own, and as I said, for pure entertainment value a super-duper plough knocks Angry Birds into a cocked hat!

That was what I meant when I posed my question above: as a pro you've made a pretty good case for the (probable) advantages of the Veritas but you're nonetheless not convinced that it's worth laying down your hard earned cash for it. This is perhaps a bit ironic because it looks like it's designed to meet professional requirements but it is perhaps likely to be predominantly bought by amateurs who can afford to indulge in their hobby.

 

[PAC1]

I am pleased to see them try to upgrade the combination plane. I would have thought that to be successful it needs to do what was originally intended - moulding. A few reading and fluting cutters do not justify the expense. They need more choices.
The combination plane has never been the best rebate plane and most people buying this will already have a rebate plane.
I do like the cross grain housings that Derek demonstrated.
I like the fact that cutters will be interchangeable.
Do they have a plan for a set of Rounds and Hollows along with a skate attachment for the purpose?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That was what I meant when I posed my question above: as a pro you've made a pretty good case for the (probable) advantages of the Veritas but you're nonetheless not convinced that it's worth laying down your hard earned cash for it. This is perhaps a bit ironic because it looks like it's designed to meet professional requirements but it is perhaps likely to be predominantly bought by amateurs who can afford to indulge in their hobby.

I wonder if that is primarily the market they aim for? There are a large number of people on UKW who own Qangsheng, LV, Veritas etc. that are not professional users. (Me not being one of them ), although of course the pros have the advantage of putting their tools against their expenses, which takes the edge off the price.

 

[Jacob]

...... it looks like it's designed to meet professional requirements but it is perhaps likely to be predominantly bought by amateurs who can afford to indulge in their hobby.

Absolutely. It's for wealthy amateurs. A pro would use a spindle - cheapest, fastest and most accurate way to do very many things.
There are eccentric 'pros' of course, who think there is some special virtue in using hand tools, which is true if the power goes, or for the occasional odd job when a hand tool is the most practical way of doing something.
I've had a Stanley combi for about 30 years - nothing wrong with it but it's hardly been out of the box! Most of the fancier hand tools are aimed at the wealthy amateur market - including all those fancy woodies which turn up often for sale, mainly because they were never used - they wouldn't have survived under production conditions!

 

[AndyT]

I'm not convinced that a combination plane would be good for rebating - it's got no sole.

I've used one for ploughing (which it did well) but never for anything else. Anybody tried rebating with one?

I've spent a little while doing some experiments to try to answer this question.
So as not to take this thread too far off the specific topic of the Veritas plane, I've started a new thread rebating-with-a-combination-plane-t107307.html

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Custard, the secret to clean housings across the grain - whether a dado or rebate - is the alignment of the nicker with the blade. Plus, of course, both must be sharp.

The Veritas Combo makes it easier to adjust these - and to ensure that the settings are repeatable. That is down to the use of set screws for both (which is kind of a Veritas thing).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

... the secret to clean housings across the grain - whether a dado or rebate - is the alignment of the nicker with the blade. .....

Or simpler - use any rebate plane, without any accessories attached, and make the cut both ways, to gauge or knifed lines.
i.e. you plane the rebate to the edge line and as close to the face line as you can, then turn it to finish the 'wall' with one or two passes.
Saves a lot of time fiddling about and no need for another expensive plane!