New hand planes?

[Peter Sefton]

It's true that the multi-plane does seem to have quietly left the Clifton catalogue. Given the number of near-perfect vintage Stanley and Record examples about, the near £1000 price tag for the Clifton plane and extra cutters must have made it a very slow seller.

One thing that Clifton do have that the other makers don't is their cryogenically-treated O1 irons. I've not yet seen any comparison between them and the fashionable A2 and PMV-11 offerings, but I seem to recall Peter Sefton mentioning that there was a significant difference between irons when he undertook a pre-production blind testing between standard and cryo-treated examples. He didn't know which were which, but as Clifton now supply cryo-treated irons as standard, I think we can infer that they were the better performers than the non-cryo examples.

If it does emerge that adding cryogenics to the heat-treatment regime of O1 steel gives noticable improvements in edge life, it won't be long before everyone is at it, though.

I believe I was one of three professional woodworkers asked to blind bench test three blades for Clifton (for tool development not money). I understand one of the other testers was a well known UK tool reviewer and the third was a big name in the USA. (I did suggest a maker in Australia Derek)

We were sent three blades each with no other information other than a stamped I.D number so we could reference our results against. I wrote some bench test criteria and a method for us to work on based on a range of timbers and timings and sharpening methods. I had no contact with the other testers and don't know their results.

It was not a scientific test and was not a comparison with other blades on the market.

I ground and sharpened the blades before setting them to work planing down solid timbers and then tested them taking end grain cuts. We noted surface finish and longevity of blade life.

The general outcome was one blade was very hard and took forever to grind (over an hour and half) and polish the back before eventually taking a good edge and holding it for quite some time.

The second blade ground and sharpened very quickly and was quick to get the back flat and polished (less than ten minutes) this became very sharp but was the quickest to loose its edge.

The third blade took slightly longer to grind, flatten and hone (I am taking about a 10-12 minutes in total) This blade took an excellent sharp edge and lasted longer than the second blade and was sharper than the first.

My guess was that the first blade was a very hard D2/A2 or similar. The second blade did turn out to be the old O1 hand forged Clifton and the third blade which I felt was the best is the current O1 Cryo blade that is in use in all production Clifton's.

In blade preparation comparison my experience is that Veritas blades take the least amount of time to commission from new (I always fresh grind all blades)

LN A2 blades can take up to an hour to get flat and polished (i don't use the ruler trick unless I get bored prepping a blade)

QS and WoodRiver T10 blades usually take the same time as a Cryo Clifton around 10 minutes.

I have a real mixture of blades within my own tool kit including a Ray Iles D2 which is great for planing Cascamite when cleaning up laminating work.

I think the new Clifton Cryo blade is very competitive at 2/3 the price of the old hand forged blade, this is a very good all round blade for our European timbers.
I don't think we will ever see any more hand forged blades from Sheffield at the old price, my understanding is they were never profitable to produce. We and a few dealers do still have the hand forged blades in-stock so those who wish to stay true to the traditions of Sheffield can be satisfied.

Cheers Peter

 

[custard]

I have a real mixture of blades within my own tool kit including a Ray Iles D2 which is great for planing Cascamite when cleaning up laminating work.

I do exactly the same thing, a Ray Iles D2 blade in an old Record 05, exclusively for UF glue veneered/lamination work and the edges of plywood. It works so well I'm thinking of replicating the set up in a block plane.

 

[Steve1066]

It's true that the multi-plane does seem to have quietly left the Clifton catalogue. Given the number of near-perfect vintage Stanley and Record examples about, the near £1000 price tag for the Clifton plane and extra cutters must have made it a very slow seller.

One thing that Clifton do have that the other makers don't is their cryogenically-treated O1 irons. I've not yet seen any comparison between them and the fashionable A2 and PMV-11 offerings, but I seem to recall Peter Sefton mentioning that there was a significant difference between irons when he undertook a pre-production blind testing between standard and cryo-treated examples. He didn't know which were which, but as Clifton now supply cryo-treated irons as standard, I think we can infer that they were the better performers than the non-cryo examples.

If it does emerge that adding cryogenics to the heat-treatment regime of O1 steel gives noticable improvements in edge life, it won't be long before everyone is at it, though.

I believe I was one of three professional woodworkers asked to blind bench test three blades for Clifton (for tool development not money). I understand one of the other testers was a well known UK tool reviewer and the third was a big name in the USA. (I did suggest a maker in Australia Derek)

We were sent three blades each with no other information other than a stamped I.D number so we could reference our results against. I wrote some bench test criteria and a method for us to work on based on a range of timbers and timings and sharpening methods. I had no contact with the other testers and don't know their results.

It was not a scientific test and was not a comparison with other blades on the market.

I ground and sharpened the blades before setting them to work planing down solid timbers and then tested them taking end grain cuts. We noted surface finish and longevity of blade life.

The general outcome was one blade was very hard and took forever to grind (over an hour and half) and polish the back before eventually taking a good edge and holding it for quite some time.

The second blade ground and sharpened very quickly and was quick to get the back flat and polished (less than ten minutes) this became very sharp but was the quickest to loose its edge.

The third blade took slightly longer to grind, flatten and hone (I am taking about a 10-12 minutes in total) This blade took an excellent sharp edge and lasted longer than the second blade and was sharper than the first.

My guess was that the first blade was a very hard D2/A2 or similar. The second blade did turn out to be the old O1 hand forged Clifton and the third blade which I felt was the best is the current O1 Cryo blade that is in use in all production Clifton's.

In blade preparation comparison my experience is that Veritas blades take the least amount of time to commission from new (I always fresh grind all blades)

LN A2 blades can take up to an hour to get flat and polished (i don't use the ruler trick unless I get bored prepping a blade)

QS and WoodRiver T10 blades usually take the same time as a Cryo Clifton around 10 minutes.

I have a real mixture of blades within my own tool kit including a Ray Iles D2 which is great for planing Cascamite when cleaning up laminating work.

I think the new Clifton Cryo blade is very competitive at 2/3 the price of the old hand forged blade, this is a very good all round blade for our European timbers.
I don't think we will ever see any more hand forged blades from Sheffield at the old price, my understanding is they were never profitable to produce. We and a few dealers do still have the hand forged blades in-stock so those who wish to stay true to the traditions of Sheffield can be satisfied.

Cheers Peter

Hi Peter I was just wondering why you fresh grind all your blades ?
And if any one interested I have a plane with an A2 blade that I uses for shooting in those lovey cheep door that people insist on buying from DIY store, Rips through a gun nail Like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Trafalgar]

If one chooses to hollow grind at all then one should grind frequently. When done correctly and on a wheel of the correct size it won't produce a burr and shouldn't produce a burr unless you need to remove a nick. Then, it's a matter of grinding straight across to a depth that removes the nick and then back at the correct grinding angle to produce the bevel and hollow. A hollow ground bevel is a built-in honing jig.

FWIW, grinding flat on a horizontal wheel or on vertically running belts grinds all the way to the edge and unnecessarily removes length and does not produce a hollow that can be utilized as a honing jig.

 

[Steve1066]

If one chooses to hollow grind at all then one should grind frequently. When done correctly and on a wheel of the correct size it won't produce a burr and shouldn't produce a burr unless you need to remove a nick. Then, it's a matter of grinding straight across to a depth that removes the nick and then back at the correct grinding angle to produce the bevel and hollow. A hollow ground bevel is a built-in honing jig.

FWIW, grinding flat on a horizontal wheel or on vertically running belts grinds all the way to the edge and unnecessarily removes length and does not produce a hollow that can be utilized as a honing jig.

I know I should've kept my mouth shut .
I understand the principal differences between a hollow grind and a flat grind.
I was just interested in why he feels the need to put a fresh grind on a brand new blade whether it be hollow or flat.

 

[Trafalgar]

1. Establish the hollow and grind one is used to working with;
2. Remove the first sixteenth or so to get to the properly annealed portion of the iron (always a good idea);
3. Look at the color of the sparks to get an idea of the composition of the metal;
4. Generally getting a feel for the steel;
5. Etc., etc.

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

 

[sploo]

1. Establish the hollow and grind one is used to working with;
2. Remove the first sixteenth or so to get to the properly annealed portion of the iron (always a good idea);
3. Look at the color of the sparks to get an idea of the composition of the metal;
4. Generally getting a feel for the steel;
5. Etc., etc.

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

I'm pretty certain there was an article on the Narex website indicating that you won't get the "true" sharpness/hardness (can't remember the details) until you'd ground off the end of one of their chisels. Could just be specific to their steel process though so I don't know if that applies to the various types of plane iron processes (but I'm assuming that's your point #2).

 

[Peter Sefton]

Steve

I regrind all new blades for a variety of reasons.

1. I find after backing off and polishing fresh blades new students are prone to dubbing the end of the plane blade or chisel and regrinding back up to .5mm usually removes any rounding of the edge.

2. Some new blades come with slight chips in the edge from ether manufacture or handling whist in transit.

3. Most steels just feel better .25mm back from the original mass manufacture process

4. Blades don't always come at the manufacturers stated grinding angle or square.

5. The majority of my plane blades have a camber to one degree or another.

6. I just like to know that I have started afresh to overcome any of the above issues and it ensures the students have experience the complete grind and sharpening process.

Cheers Peter

 

[Steve1066]

Steve

I regrind all new blades for a variety of reasons.

1. I find after backing off and polishing fresh blades new students are prone to dubbing the end of the plane blade or chisel and regrinding back up to .5mm usually removes any rounding of the edge.

2. Some new blades come with slight chips in the edge from ether manufacture or handling whist in transit.

3. Most steels just feel better .25mm back from the original mass manufacture process

4. Blades don't always come at the manufacturers stated grinding angle or square.

5. The majority of my plane blades have a camber to one degree or another.

6. I just like to know that I have started afresh to overcome any of the above issues and it ensures the students have experience the complete grind and sharpening process.

Cheers Peter

Thanks Peter

 

[Jelly]

1. Establish the hollow and grind one is used to working with;
2. Remove the first sixteenth or so to get to the properly annealed portion of the iron (always a good idea);
3. Look at the color of the sparks to get an idea of the composition of the metal;
4. Generally getting a feel for the steel;
5. Etc., etc.

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

I'm curious about point 4, what can you tell from the spark colour about composition?
I get the principle of how that would work from having used AAS and OES instruments, but the faint colour change from ±0.25% of a given metal is surely to subtle to distinguish by eye.

As far as point 1 goes I usually do the exact opposite (ironically, for the same purpose) using a linisher: remove any hollow and establish a convex bevel... The beauty being that on a horizontal linishing machine I can manipulate the chisel exactly as on a sharpening stone, such that the shape I grind is matched perfectly to the motions I'll make every time I sharpen the edge up on a stone.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

Is that a thing? Never reground a new bevel either, unless I'm adding a camber

 

[David C]

Shortening a new blade by 0.5 to 1.5 mm is often a good way of mopping up faults on the back.

Things like rounded corners, or falling away near the edge, perhaps with deep grinding marks..

These would take far too long to remove by working the back only.

I am intrigued that Peter finds RT useful for stubborn blades, but fails to see that the benefits are applicable to all blades (except chisels).

Having established flatness of width at the edge, on an 800g stone, polishing probably takes no more than 2 minutes on an 8,0000g stone.

Flattening and reducing manufacturers grinding marks is the real work. I find blades irritatingly variable. A good one might take 10 minutes and a poorly ground one 40 minutes.

There are some which are better returned to the manufacturer.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Jelly]

Flattening and reducing manufacturers grinding marks is the real work. I find blades irritatingly variable. A good one might take 10 minutes and a poorly ground one 40 minutes.

David, what improvement do you see from lapping and polishing the back of the Iron, I've never really felt the need to intentionally do so and don't see any I'll effects...

I'm curious in part as I'm just about to commission a surface grinder, which gives me an opportunity to attain very high standards of flatness, and by selecting appropriately grain size and friability of wheels surface finish also; opening up the possibility of carrying out some empirical testing (admittedly I'll need to see if I can use a friend's lab if I want to take micrographs of the edges or use optical measument equipment to examine flatness).

 

[David C]

The quality of an edge is dictated by the surface with the worst finish. See electron microscope photos in Leonard Lee "Sharpening" which make this quite clear.

Polishing the back of an iron is a tradition amongst cabinetmakers.

To my mind polishing the whole back is a complete waste of time, (and difficult on waterstones), .

Why polish metal that does no cutting. I am hoping Peter Sefton will comment on this.

Flatness of width is desirable at the edge as it makes fitting the C/B easier.

The Ruler Technique, as Tom Fidgen is now calling it, creates polish just where it is needed.
The probability of edge touching stone is massively increased.
The wire edge is easily polished away and further stropping not required.
Metal is removed from the place where the wear bevel forms.

Veritas who supply ultra flat blades are doing this with lapping equipment.

One of the problems of magnetic chucks on surface grinders, is how flat was the stock before it was sucked down by the magnet?

best wishes,
David

 

[Trafalgar]

1. Establish the hollow and grind one is used to working with;
2. Remove the first sixteenth or so to get to the properly annealed portion of the iron (always a good idea);
3. Look at the color of the sparks to get an idea of the composition of the metal;
4. Generally getting a feel for the steel;
5. Etc., etc.

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

I'm curious about point 4, what can you tell from the spark colour about composition?
I get the principle of how that would work from having used AAS and OES instruments, but the faint colour change from ±0.25% of a given metal is surely to subtle to distinguish by eye.

As far as point 1 goes I usually do the exact opposite (ironically, for the same purpose) using a linisher: remove any hollow and establish a convex bevel... The beauty being that on a horizontal linishing machine I can manipulate the chisel exactly as on a sharpening stone, such that the shape I grind is matched perfectly to the motions I'll make every time I sharpen the edge up on a stone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing

 

[Trafalgar]

Flattening and polishing the back of a plane iron... just not that hard. Here's how to go about it:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/106 ... ished-back

The results speak for themselves.

The author of the article is a professional craftsman:

http://www.chrisgochnour.com/

The entire back is polished to the slot simply because it's more comfortable to register that much iron on the work surface. If in the course of your career or hobby you use the blade almost all the way to the slot (presumably that would be the plan, no?) then so much the better.

If one insists on using pitted, bellied steel practically beyond redemption when investment in the rest of kit is paradoxically measured in the thousands (pounds or dollars take your pick) then one has problems best handled in a setting other than a woodworking forum.

 

[Jelly]

1. Establish the hollow and grind one is used to working with;
2. Remove the first sixteenth or so to get to the properly annealed portion of the iron (always a good idea);
3. Look at the color of the sparks to get an idea of the composition of the metal;
4. Generally getting a feel for the steel;
5. Etc., etc.

Otherwise, sort of like wearing new underwear without putting it through the wash first.

I'm curious about point 4, what can you tell from the spark colour about composition?
I get the principle of how that would work from having used AAS and OES instruments, but the faint colour change from ±0.25% of a given metal is surely to subtle to distinguish by eye.

As far as point 1 goes I usually do the exact opposite (ironically, for the same purpose) using a linisher: remove any hollow and establish a convex bevel... The beauty being that on a horizontal linishing machine I can manipulate the chisel exactly as on a sharpening stone, such that the shape I grind is matched perfectly to the motions I'll make every time I sharpen the edge up on a stone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing

That is quite interesting... I'd never really thought about the shape and pattern of sparks before... I think I need to do some reading.

 

[David C]

His method is impeccable but there is absolutely no point in polishing all that steel, which will not cut for years!

David

 

[D_W]

.. then one has problems ..

Speaking of, while browsing last week, I noticed Jim Bode has an old but barely used primus plane with lignum and beech for $85 with shipping.

Guessing by your comment of being a buyer at $75 all day, that's another one for you.

Of course, it's probably been there for a while. The notion of them having some special value above and beyond a stanley plane is protected only by low volume and infrequent sale.

 

[D_W]

His method is impeccable but there is absolutely no point in polishing all that steel, which will not cut for years!

David

Agreed. He uses the term sharp as a razor, but razors are biased so that you are sharpening only a very small amount of metal. Most beginners who tried that would end up with a shiny backed iron that didn't have the stria from the polish stones taken all of the way to the edge.

Guaranteed that the worked surface on 99% of planes in shops would get some rust on it before most of the polished part would ever see the edge. What a waste of time and effort.