New hand planes?

[Trafalgar]

His method is impeccable but there is absolutely no point in polishing all that steel, which will not cut for years!

David

David, as mentioned it's simply easier and a bit safer IMO to register a hefty portion of the cutter on the substrate. I've done this. It isn't more work. It's about fifteen to twenty minutes' worth in total. For an iron that will last years the time spent doesn't even rise to rounding error.

David Weaver: if a little rust shows up just hit them again. Ten swipes tops and it's gone. No big deal.

 

[Trafalgar]

.. then one has problems ..

Speaking of, while browsing last week, I noticed Jim Bode has an old but barely used primus plane with lignum and beech for $85 with shipping.

Guessing by your comment of being a buyer at $75 all day, that's another one for you.

Of course, it's probably been there for a while. The notion of them having some special value above and beyond a stanley plane is protected only by low volume and infrequent sale.

That's fantastic. I've done business with Bode and it appears I will again. Late Christmas gift to myself.

 

[MIGNAL]

It's at a very good price but you might soon tire of the obstacle course that is swapping the blade in and out. I know that I did. Much prefer the simple wedged version, which I subsequently bought. Still at that price you could buy it, have a play and perhaps sell it at not much of a loss.

 

[D_W]

.. then one has problems ..

Speaking of, while browsing last week, I noticed Jim Bode has an old but barely used primus plane with lignum and beech for $85 with shipping.

Guessing by your comment of being a buyer at $75 all day, that's another one for you.

Of course, it's probably been there for a while. The notion of them having some special value above and beyond a stanley plane is protected only by low volume and infrequent sale.

That's fantastic. I've done business with Bode and it appears I will again. Late Christmas gift to myself.

I don't know what the guy knows and doesn't know about them, but IIRC, there's a version with a moving mouth and one that doesn't have a moving mouth. It appears that what bode has is one without a moving mouth (I thought that ece referred to that as a jack plane, but with no real difference other than the moving mouth). He has one with a moving mouth, too, but in cherry and at a higher price. I've never been able to figure out how he prices things.

 

[David C]

As usual we have several conversations going simultaneously here.

Peter Sefton and I both run schools. Many students do not have much strength in their fingers and hands.

Peter said "A2 blades can take up to an hour to get flat and polished", something which I can confirm.

When people are clearly making virtually no progress, I am happy to take over.

David Charlesworth

 

[Trafalgar]

That's unfortunate.

I suppose if the class is any other than a plane fettling class then the school might provide well lapped and polished irons to the students. I can't imagine what it must be like if students show up for class with tools in various states of fettle or so substandard that they cannot be brought to a serviceable state at all without a huge investment in time.

I had an A2 scrub plane iron and it wasn't particularly bad to polish out. Seemed flat out of the box which at that time was Lie-Nielsen's reputation. That was several years ago though.

 

[Trafalgar]

David Weaver:

It would be uncharacteristic of Jim to sell a Primus plane for a third of retail unless it was in pretty sorry condition. I'll check his site in a bit.

 

[D_W]

David Weaver:

It would be uncharacteristic of Jim to sell a Primus plane for a third of retail unless it was in pretty sorry condition. I'll check his site in a bit.

It's under "wood planes".

I got a perfectly fine ward chisel from him not that long ago, including shipping, for $23. A strange thing (and as you say, not his normal m.o.). Since he has stopped selling on ebay, and perhaps due to a large inventory, sometimes there are things that seem priced fairly low.

the plane I'm referring to is under his "wood plane" section a few pages deep. So, too, is the much higher priced one. Both look in good condition, but I think you'll be disappointed as I looked and the inexpensive one has a fixed mouth.

 

[David C]

Charles,

My tool tuning course is about getting the student's tools sharp and working as well as possible. Plus knowing how to use a plane to perfect 6 surfaces of a component.

(Mine already work).

David

 

[Trafalgar]

David C., I was referring to other classes besides your tuning courses. I don't envy you having to deal with students' tools in various states though this may not come up if you furnish them.

David W. Checking Bode momentarily. My dealings with him have been good. I found his prices reasonable but most importantly his description of condition always a little understated if anything. I bought a set of Marples straight firmers from him that I dearly love and a Stanley 55 unfortunately destroyed by fire after it came into my possession.

 

[D_W]

"Tuning" courses are a revenue generator for a local here, too. I believe there is a multi-session multi-hour course provided for students to learn to sharpen and clean up old planes.

The local guy does, at least, suggest that folks learn to fettle tools and understand how they work, and he suggests to his students that they should stay away from woodworking information on the internet (!!) because there are always multiple answers in direct conflict with each other.

As most here would be pleased with, planes are provided as a complement to power tools where necessary, but not hand tool only woodworking or toolmaking (though there is a subset of students here who would like to learn to build planes - nobody available to teach them, though).

 

[MIGNAL]

David Weaver:

It would be uncharacteristic of Jim to sell a Primus plane for a third of retail unless it was in pretty sorry condition. I'll check his site in a bit.

It looks to be the ECE 704 P. The designation 'P' indicating a Lignum sole. It does not have the adjustable mouth (no big deal IMO). The one with the adjustable mouth is the Primus 'improved' smooth plane, the 711. Both planes feature the spring tensioning mechanism.
Neither of these would be my favourite, if only because of that tensioning mechanism and the time it takes to swap out blades. I did once own the ECE 704. I sold it and bought a used 104 S - no tensioning mechanism, simple wedge, Beech body, Hornbeam sole. I still have this plane.
At $85 the 704 P is very reasonably priced providing it's in good condition. To put it into some perspective he has an Ulmia that is very similar to my wedged 104 for $89. Whether you get on with the 704 is another matter. I didn't and sold mine at a loss. If I'd paid $85 for it I would have made a half decent profit.

 

[D_W]

I had the same thought when I had mine. It was a plane I could've liked just fine without the adjuster or retention mechanism. I wasn't around before the last 10 years or so (in woodworking) so I hadn't seen the card of "improvements" over stanley planes, but I saw a copy of it last year (can't remember where) at a retailer in the US who used the ad copy to market their planes. I'm still trying to find a weakness in the stanley smoother aside from the fact that it's not a wooden plane (which is OK to me for the smoother).

I liked that type enough (the continental smoother) to try it and bought a pair of mujingfang wedged continental planes, one in ebony for the princely sum of $65, and one in shungee (it was supposed to be ebony) for $5 more. They have HSS irons, which is novel, but I'd have been happier if they were carbon steel. I have the gear to sharpen them, but for practical purposes, don't find an advantage in the HSS unless one is taking fine shavings of silica.

But I do like (and still have) the two muji planes - you can get a lot more on the smoother because of the pair of handles, and it pushes and pulls well - something that can be learned on the stanley fairly easy, but the mouth position makes the continentals better for it.

I tracked down two continental smoothers over here with fine double irons in them, one that might be English (can't remember the maker, but the iron is buck). They get no love here in the states, and were something like $10 each. I intend to make one later this year for entertainment, perhaps with a wider iron than most come with.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The local guy does, at least, suggest that folks learn to fettle tools and understand how they work, and he suggests to his students that they should stay away from woodworking information on the internet (!!) because there are always multiple answers in direct conflict with each other.

Well, in all honesty, he's right about the multiple answers in direct conflict. No wonder some people prefer to buy new planes that work 'out of the box', needing only sharpening and fitting the capiron. After all, if your aim is to make stuff out of wood, you only need a few planes that work and work well - different if you enjoy collecting and restoring old planes, of course.

Which brings us neatly back to the original question. I still reckon that to buy a decent plane of number 3 or 4 size new that will work as delivered you need to spend about £100 or more (in the UK - the figure will obviously be different in other countries). A bit more than that for a number 5, and quite a lot more for a number 7.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Shortening a new blade by 0.5 to 1.5 mm is often a good way of mopping up faults on the back.

Things like rounded corners, or falling away near the edge, perhaps with deep grinding marks..

These would take far too long to remove by working the back only.

I am intrigued that Peter finds RT useful for stubborn blades, but fails to see that the benefits are applicable to all blades (except chisels).

Having established flatness of width at the edge, on an 800g stone, polishing probably takes no more than 2 minutes on an 8,0000g stone.

Flattening and reducing manufacturers grinding marks is the real work. I find blades irritatingly variable. A good one might take 10 minutes and a poorly ground one 40 minutes.

There are some which are better returned to the manufacturer.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

The fattening and polishing of the back of the blade is a one off process in the life of an iron, so between 10 and 40 minutes for a blade that lasts years.

My feeling is this is a small investment in time to get a flat back. This is common practice with a chisel and it doesn't seem to be a major issue, although they are smaller and need to be a reference face. I use a very similar technique as the article, but I use Industrial Scary Sharp (PSA) backed stuck on glass.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/106 ... ished-back

I do teach students how to use oil stones, diamonds plates and water stones either as part of short sharpening courses or as the first stage in my 9 month course. I am happy for them to use any of these techniques (on their own tools) including your ruler trick which I demonstrate.

I have individual tool set box's for all the students to use, which have planes with polished blades in them that were previously worked on by past students. These blades have polished backs up to 3 micron 8000/9000 grit they only ever need maintaing with the 3 micron or at worst 9 micron.

I also teach students to fettle their own old planes and commission new ones, I guess we work on at least 100 planes a year, all different makes and qualities.

Different sharpening mediums including water stones benefit from different working methods. A2 steels are hard and water stones are soft so flattening the entire back of a plane iron may prove very hard work, making the ruler trick helpful (on that medium). I feel this is the main benefit of the ruler trick but not one I need. I feel it is easier to maintain a blade with a flat back rather than one with a 0.5 degree angle meeting the bevel side, which has to be maintained or ground out.

As has been said there are many different ways of achieving excellent results, not better just different and something that will be talked about on forums forever with no conclusion.

We try and make the non productive time spent on sharpening as painless as possible so we can spend our time making furniture and paying the bills.

Cheers Peter

 

[Trafalgar]

It bears mention that one can perform a very slight lift on a firm, charged strop and achieve polish right at the edge without abrading hardly any steel at all. It's easy enough to assess the results by noticing the very bright line of steel on the back, right at the edge.

Very fine AlOx powder simply does not remove much material. It will work on chisels without spoiling flatness in the near term. Perhaps this technique can fall in between a full back flattening and polishing and the outright ruler trick on a honing stone which produces a tiny but still measurable bevel and is therefore recommended for use on plane irons only.

 

[David C]

Peter,

Thank you for your post.

In my scheme of things the very narrow o.6 degree back bevel just remains. It is maintained with every sharpening and never needs grinding out.

I have already stated the other advantages.

One thing that I notice is that sharpening results becomes more consistent. It works every time and the wire edge is cleanly honed away. This was not always the case with the traditional method which I was taught.
The probability that blade back and stone are perfectly flat, seems small, so I will continue to benefit from the Ruler Trick.

best wishes,
David

 

[D_W]

If the stone cleanly moves any wire edge back to the bevel side, then the back side is flat enough. Confirmation of that is by bare clean leather strop showing no marks, and by viewing the edge and seeing nothing at all (it will reflect light differently if stropped with abrasive as charlie suggests, or if it's not finished all the way to the edge).

I'm sure that most people would get better initial results with the ruler trick, and whether it's needed for people with experience is up to them. There is a plauge of beginning sharpening talk on the forums, though, that makes it seem as though we can't rely on older methods, like laying the iron flat and using bare leather, despite the fact that for someone who has a plane in significant use, the results are good every single time.

It's just a matter of whether you want to locate a strop or a ruler when you sharpen, and decide which types of stones you're using (with a washita or oilstone, no lapping is needed, which is nice).

I'd rather chase the strop, but when someone is new, I usually point them to a ruler because I don't think the subtlety of what's going on with the wire edge is something newbies grasp very well. A well honed iron (even one not sharpened to a super high polish) will shave hair easily on both sides of the bevel once it has been stropped properly. Once that is keeping some foil will shave flipped one way, but if flipped over another, it will not do so as easily.

 

[G S Haydon]

The local guy does, at least, suggest that folks learn to fettle tools and understand how they work, and he suggests to his students that they should stay away from woodworking information on the internet (!!) because there are always multiple answers in direct conflict with each other.

Well, in all honesty, he's right about the multiple answers in direct conflict. No wonder some people prefer to buy new planes that work 'out of the box', needing only sharpening and fitting the capiron. After all, if your aim is to make stuff out of wood, you only need a few planes that work and work well - different if you enjoy collecting and restoring old planes, of course.

Which brings us neatly back to the original question. I still reckon that to buy a decent plane of number 3 or 4 size new that will work as delivered you need to spend about £100 or more (in the UK - the figure will obviously be different in other countries). A bit more than that for a number 5, and quite a lot more for a number 7.

I would agree CC. I was interested by the Axminster Rider planes. But the smoother I bought is on the way back. Little or no better than a Faithful or Silverline. And in the case of the last two because they are so very cheap £12 > £25 it's not big problem to spend some time on them.

 

[Hatherton_wood]

Yes you need to buy QS and above I guess. Rider planes can be made to work well but you need to put a lot of effort - the quality control needs to be better that's for sure.