Need some help with my table saw...

[PAC1]

And to say that you CAN'T have kickback if you use a RK was disproven by me just a couple of weeks ago.

He distinguishes between kickback and ejection, ... your case sounded more like ejection?

I am not sure there is a distinction. I watched the video and I am not pursuaded. I would define kickback as any thing where the saw blade is able to cause the material being cut to be driven with force back towards the operator. Whether the cause of it is the material being caught on the back of a tooth by the lip between the plate and tooth or being free to ride the top of the blade, is immaterial save for the trajectory. From an outcome point of view in either case a piece of wood is heading towards you at in excess of 80mph and at best you are 1 yard away. Whether it hits or misses is more luck than judgement.
The latter can be virtually eliminated by always having a riving knife fitted and an effective Crown Guard where ever possible.
A fully enclosed Crown Guard will reduce the first instance as the material is held to some extent by the Crown Guard. I have a SUVA (Swiss Insurance Industry approved Crown Guard) because they fully enclose the blade and the weight of the guard presses down on the material so it is not free to take flight. The SUVA also allows better dust extraction.

 

[Ttrees]

I have a SUVA (Swiss Insurance Industry approved Crown Guard) because they fully enclose the blade and the weight of the guard presses down on the material so it is not free to take flight. The SUVA also allows better dust extraction.

Hello PAC1
Care to show off your Swiss approved crown guard ..so we can make our own ?
I would be watching the video and searching google for this Swiss design guard if m'internet wasn't shoddy
Thanks

 

[Steve Maskery]

And to say that you CAN'T have kickback if you use a RK was disproven by me just a couple of weeks ago.

[Kickback] can be virtually eliminated by always having a riving knife fitted and an effective Crown Guard where ever possible.
A fully enclosed Crown Guard will reduce the first instance as the material is held to some extent by the Crown Guard. I have a SUVA (Swiss Insurance Industry approved Crown Guard) because they fully enclose the blade and the weight of the guard presses down on the material so it is not free to take flight. The SUVA also allows better dust extraction.

Three weeks ago I would have agreed with you. But my RK is correctly adjusted, I rip with a short fence, my guard is SUVA, and heavy (at least it jolly well hurts if I drop it on my finger when making adjustments), yet I still managed it.

I do agree with you about the irrelevance of which particular tooth flings it at me, if I am hit with part of a tree, I'm not going to stand there wondering if it was ejection or kickback. TBH I've never heard of it being called ejection.

But let's not traduce KM just because of that, as I say, he is one of the good guys.

Ttrees, I'll take a photo of mine this afternoon.

 

[PAC1]

I have a SUVA (Swiss Insurance Industry approved Crown Guard) because they fully enclose the blade and the weight of the guard presses down on the material so it is not free to take flight. The SUVA also allows better dust extraction.

Hello PAC1
Care to show off your Swiss approved crown guard ..so we can make our own ?
I would be watching the video and searching google for this Swiss design guard if m'internet wasn't shoddy
Thanks

Here is a link to the one I have http://scosarg.com/suva-s315-circular-saw-guard-27175

 

[PAC1]

Steve, you can never totally remove the risk, save for abandoning woodwork! You can only reduce the risk. If there are any additional measures I can take I would be only to pleased to here suggestions. I know that on my SUVA the right hand side does not go all the way to the table so thin material say 6mm or less could still take flight. There is also a risk with guards that are not fixed to the riving knife that material could get between the blade and the guard. All we can do is reduce the risks.

 

[transatlantic]

Three weeks ago I would have agreed with you. But my RK is correctly adjusted, I rip with a short fence, my guard is SUVA, and heavy (at least it jolly well hurts if I drop it on my finger when making adjustments), yet I still managed it.

I do agree with you about the irrelevance of which particular tooth flings it at me, if I am hit with part of a tree, I'm not going to stand there wondering if it was ejection or kickback. TBH I've never heard of it being called ejection.

But let's not traduce KM just because of that, as I say, he is one of the good guys.

Ttrees, I'll take a photo of mine this afternoon.

It sounded like he was only making the distinction to show which way the material is flung, to demonstrate that standing to the side of the blade doesn't mean you won't get hit should kick back occur. i.e when you have ejection it's thrown straight, and you can avoid being hit by standing to the side, but if it's kick back, then you can't avoid being hit unless you stand far aways on the other side of fence.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Indeed, Peter, indeed.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Here is my setup.

Adjustable short fence for ripping (which also serves as a home for saw spanners, hex wrenches, and alternative arbor), and fully enclosing SUVA-style guard, mounted on a support arm from the far right corner of my saw.

I really ought to drill a hole in the top for a hose connection, my previous version did have that.

It's more clunky that PACs, I'll grant you, but it cost a tenth of the price and I can do non-through cuts with it.

Needless to say, I have published all this!

 

[andersonec]

I also think there are a couple of things missing, one is the distance of the riving knife from the blade

Please explain!

The riving knife must be (or at least should be) approximately one quarter of an inch, 6 to 8 mm from the blade and the top of the riving knife should be no more than approximately two inches below the top of the blade, any further than these dimensions and it starts to become ineffective.

Andy

 

[andersonec]

Just found these.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/circular-saw.pdf

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

And the full list...
http://www.hse.gov.uk/woodworking/wis.htm

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks PAC1 and Steve
I was expecting to see anti kickback pawls on this SUVA type guard ...
I'm guessing their not being employed because there more trouble than their worth ?
and the fact, you can't do non through cuts either.
And it seems from reading this thread about the SUVA guard dropping on your finger that you could graze your hand
if they were installed too .
I thinks, if I remember correctly there are two trains of thought about these guards ...
Convenience for doing rebates and sturdiness factor voted for the one you've made Steve
But it looks like the other one PAC1's got, will guard when tilted .
I can't seem to remember what site or thread I was reading, but I'm sure I've forgot some important factors .
I might take a pot shot and guess, some folks that have the overarm guard might use the factory guard when tilted ..
Although it doesn't look all that slow to remove that commercial guard ....
but what do I know
Great thread
T

 

[Steve Maskery]

On mine, the blade tilts within the cover, and I can adjust the lateral position to accommodate this. It takes 10 seconds.

TBH I was surprised when I saw PACs that it was SUVA. SUVA is a standard rather than a design, but all the other SUVA guards I have seen are mounted overarm like mine. His does look rather splendid though, I have to admit.

But this evening I am less concerned about hurting myself with a tablesaw than I am with a pair of scissors...

Nurse!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... and the top of the riving knife should be no more than approximately two inches below the top of the blade, any further than these dimensions and it starts to become ineffective. Andy

I suspect a typo. 2 mm is the dimension I think you may have been reaching for. Slainte.

 

[pike]

The riving knife must be (or at least should be) approximately one quarter of an inch, 6 to 8 mm from the blade ..

Andy

Is it dangerous to have it closer than that? I just set mine and it ended up about 3 or 4 mm. My manual says 3-8mm.

 

[Steve Maskery]

HSE says 3-8mm.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again folks
Thought I'd resurrect this thread, as I think this subject could be discussed further.
I have been pondering some , and have some questions on the blade guard.

It doesn't seem like anyone who uses this blade guard/cover utilizes the extension fence for a router table.
I have been thinking of a removable system..but anyway.

Has these guards/covers the ability to tilt with the blade ...or is it still functional without being tilted...
If so where should it be positioned for this operation ?

I would like to know aswell,for those who have their overarm guard without a table extension, has the post for the guard arm ever got in the way ?

I can't seem to find any good videos or piccys on these overarm guards nor information in detail on them.
Some of them has wheels, some has counter weights, there mounted in different positions too.

Also how much of a reduction in dust spray does this guard prevent without dust extraction ?
Thanks in advance
Tom

 

[Hornbeam]

I agree with the comment about the height of teh crown guard. It should be set close to teh work piece so that if the piece does get picked up it can only lift a small distance and doesnt get much speed

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks hornbeam, crown guard is another keyword that I had overlooked.
It seems the old Wadkin guard had only one side covered,
This presumably was for tilting the blade.

I thought there might be some debate on this ...
Seems not
There is dust collection to be considered along with safety also.
I'm still unsure where the guard should be positioned laterally for optimum safety and dust collection ?

I'm also wondering if these guards are designedto fall on the work or are/do they have to be adjusted by a screw to adjust to the stock height?
I don't see any springs like an angle poise light, so nearly guessing so .....

I'm about to start sourcing the upright(s) from the scrap pile now
I am making the upright lower than the table extension so it won't interfere with a router setup if I chose to make one in the future

It seems like I'll get away with the placement of everything where I wanted ..so I still will have space for whatever under the extension.

 

[Ttrees]

Hi again
Thought I'd keep ye updated on this
I've decided to mount the post on in the corner of the base...
Looks like I'll get away with mounting the VFD where I wanted too, just about ...
and I've sourced some stuff from old exercise machine parts I had been hoarding
Imagine, I was thinking about throwing this stuff out :shock:

Not sure on the height of the thing yet, but I think I will lop a bit off the u-channel post, so I can get the guard lower.
I probably could cut a bit off the chrome post a too,
The grey part with the bracket slides up and down, and swings out of the way if necessary.
The chrome bar slides up from the U-channel upright for router table use.

Now to make a sliding insert for inside the cross bar, as to have adjustability for the tilting blade.
And then work on the guard design.....
Would love to see some more blade guard/crown guard/blade cover designs
Or hear more discussed on the dust collection part of it.

The Axminster TSCE-400R-1 guard looks to be one of the best, as there's one flat 90 close to the blade side, and the
other side allows for blade tilting .
However....
It doesn't look like you can swing it around, so the flat side can be used close against the fence for narrow rips.
I think this would be a good idea
What say ye folks ?
Tom