Narex Chisels- Mini review

[Jacob]

My point was that it did matter, and a 1/2" (or 10mm) nominal chisel which wasn't close to 1/2" (or 10mm) was a liability and should be binned.

I guess it is about the tools after all.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

Missed the point (as usual) BB. :roll: It's about using the tools.

 

[andy king]

My point was that it did matter, and a 1/2" (or 10mm) nominal chisel which wasn't close to 1/2" (or 10mm) was a liability and should be binned.
Basically the "don't care either way" lobby seems to be in the ascendant but my guess is that for them it's all just a game as they don't really do a lot of mortices by hand anyway.

But in reality it doesn't really though, does it?
'Trad' way is to set the pins on the gauge to the chisel and align one pin to the wall of the rebate, mark up and cut. 'Wosser problem?' to quote yourself.
The mortice fits the chisel, the tenon, marked from the same gauge and cut accurately, fits the mortice.
As was already noted way back in the thread, subsequent postings commented on where the measurements were taken and the fact that fractional clearance tapers accounted for the anomoly in the first place anyway...

Andy

 

[Jacob]

....
'Trad' way is to set the pins on the gauge to the chisel

Easier and slightly more accurate to do it to a scale

and align one pin to the wall of the rebate,

Really? Never done that myself. Much easier to do mortices before any rebates, slots, mouldings etc and tenons after ditto

... 'Wosser problem?'

No problem at all if the mortice chisel is reasonably accurate - and it seems they all are, except our OPs in the first post.

 

[andy king]

....
'Trad' way is to set the pins on the gauge to the chisel

Easier and slightly more accurate to do it to a scale

and align one pin to the wall of the rebate,

Really? Never done that myself. Much easier to do mortices before any rebates, slots, mouldings etc and tenons after ditto

... 'Wosser problem?'

No problem at all if the mortice chisel is reasonably accurate - and it seems they all are, except our OPs in the first post.

I disagree that setting to a scale is 'slightly more accurate' especially if the chisel you are using is slightly under or oversized. It's not difficult to align two pins directly over a chisel, it's a fundemental part of woodworking, and is the traditional, dyed in the wool method of setting out taught at all levels, school upwards - at least, it was when i was at school anyway.
The chisels should also be used when setting out your initial rod, that way all subsequent marking out is smack on to the chisel being used, no room for error.

Your second point about doing rebates, moulds etc first. Yes, you can do this, and you can still align one of the pins to where that mortice/rebate wall will start, but if you mould first and joint second, you have to be sure your machining of such moulds and rebates are smack on, especially if you are in a situation where you have to cut the mortice in the floor of a rebate as this will affect the tenon dimension if you mark everything from a rod set out to percieved moulds and rebates, not actual ones.
I prefer to machine and then mark the rod from the components so the everything on the rod is 'as is' no slight discrepacy of moulding errors compounding. Curved work needs a bit more thought, but can be done equally well, you just need to adapt accordingly.
I've been doing joinery since 1977, and adapting and thinking on your feet to deal with situations as they arise is what it's all about, life is a learning curve, not an excuse for an argument.

Finally, 'it seems they all are, except our OPs in the first post.'
Yes, and then pointed out very early on in the thread that the measurement was taken from the wrong place, and plenty of others have since taken measurements of various tools, all falling in close dimension to the size they should be, and also replacements offered should they prove to be rogue and way out. Again, 'wosser problem?'

Andy

 

[Jacob]

...if the chisel you are using is slightly under or oversized.....

probably a good idea to ebay it if it's a mortice chisel, or at least mark it clearly with the actual dimensions

..........
Your second point about doing rebates, moulds etc first. Yes, you can do this,...

I don't. I mortice first. Doesn't everybody? Doing it afterwards is very inconvenient, by machine or by hand. Not a good idea at all, bad practice in fact.

I prefer to machine and then mark the rod from the components

I don't follow this. Which marks would you put on the rod afterwards? I put absolutely everything on the rod at the beginning, before I've even started a cutting list, and then mark once only whilst the stuff is in the square. The only other marks I might add would be the ones I'd forgotten.

 

[andy king]

Your second point about doing rebates, moulds etc first. Yes, you can do this,...

I don't. I mortice first. Doesn't everybody? Doing it afterwards is very inconvenient, by machine or by hand. Not a good idea at all, bad practice in fact.

Nope, works well in many applications, I use both depending on the work.
It's not set in stone, it's a different way of working, not 'bad practice' at all.
Taught to me by people who had been doing joinery to high standards for many years and as said back then 'you'll find that traditional ways will work well for you, but you'll find there are many workarounds that get the same result and you'll adapt some or all of these things to suit your own methods' I have.
Even doing the mortices first, moulds after, the initial marking up still eliminates any problem with fractional chisel discrepancies. Common sense first and foremost.

Andy

 

[Jacob]

Your second point about doing rebates, moulds etc first. Yes, you can do this,...

I don't. I mortice first. Doesn't everybody? Doing it afterwards is very inconvenient, by machine or by hand. Not a good idea at all, bad practice in fact.

Nope, works well in many applications,

Example?

 

[andy king]

Example?

Well I could quite easily play you at your own game and move on to something else rather than answer.
If i can find some images of work where i've used it, i'll post them. I'd go to the workshop and do a walkthough, but at the moment, pretty impossible as I snapped my Achilles tendon at the weekend and i'm on crutches and in plaster for the next two months minimum.
Just as a quick reply for now, it works well for joinery such as doors etc.

 

[Jacob]

Sorry about your ankle, hope it gets better quickly.
I'm sure there could be an occasion when you'd want to do a mortice after mouldings etc but I can't think of one myself, least of all on doors. Any suggestions anybody?

 

[andy king]

As being able to make or show examples are difficult at the moment, here's a situation where the choice would have to be cutting joints after moulding.
I worked in Bath for a number of years, and with such extensive use of box sashes in the buildings, there was always repair/conservation work going on, and a couple of timber yards stocked specific sections with approproiate period mouldings to match existing so you could build a window from scratch and know it would match the existing architecture.
You have no choice but to mark up and cut the joints secondary if you follow this route, and it's not really as problematic as you seem to believe TBH.
At the end of the day, the minor/fractional discrepancy of the mortice chisel is what this thread is all about.
I'm simply saying it is not the problem you are making it out to be by using the basics of setting and marking out to justify it.

Andy

 

[Jacob]

....here's a situation where the choice would have to be cutting joints after moulding.......

No choice if the stuff is already profiled!
Where there is a choice you'd choose to mortice first wherever possible IMHO.

 

[Jacob]

I forgot to add - the Narex lengthways tapered notion isn't something I'd heard of before.
Seems to be a solution in search of a problem.
Can't see what help it would be. The opposite if anything - parallel sides keep the thing straight and the repeated levering to and fro will keep the sides of the mortice flat. With a taper it could go off line.
On the other hand the trapezoid cross section is usual with OBM, but isn't with sash mortice chisels (which the Narexs are).
The reason is obvious - if you tried to do a short 3/4" long mortice with a 1/2" sash chisel with tapered section, then the middle of the sides wouldn't be cleared. This is why sash MCs are square in section - or rectangular at least, if not square.
I might borrow a 1/2" and have a go side by side with my old OBM.
Makes yer think tho' dunnit, when someone takes a tried and tested idea and tries to "improve" it. :roll:

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Check your OBMCs - all of mine, both vintage and Ray's are slightly tapered, wider at the business end, narrower at the bolster.
(Just a smudge on the modern, quite noticably to the naked eye on the 3 vintage. Can't quantify - made the mistake of getting a digital caliper many moons ago, and of course the battery has decided to run out just now - will get a proper one next time I order something from across the pond.)

 

[Allylearm]

....here's a situation where the choice would have to be cutting joints after moulding.......

No choice if the stuff is already profiled!
Where there is a choice you'd choose to mortice first wherever possible IMHO.

I would think this method is for peeps who purchase ready run materials and did it myself with no other option or access to shaping machinery. Like scribe cuts on tenons and breakout you would prefer to mortise then mould.

It is better to mortise in the square and in particular machining processes now like CNC Routers you mortise before shaping to align the material in clamp and position using the mortise. I manufacture a lot of garden park benches to machine front shaped legs, arms shaped and back legs shaped you must dress square leaving enough for shaping, then mortise out, then tenon and shape, tenon can be used as a clamp and alignment method in jigs. You could not get a shaped part in a CNC Mortiser it has limited width of feed and a jig is not an option, in mine and ones I have seen. The CNC Router with C Axis can eliminate this issue by mortising and shaping and tenoning the whole part in one shot. But who has use of £105k worth of C Axis router in their workshop. I do use router mortises that are quick on back slats of bench and is very much quicker than the oscillating mortise that it also has fitted to it. The major problem in this method is depth of mortise as a lot of it gets cut away in shaping and the time extra it takes to mortise so deep is time consuming. CNC with C axis is a great deal faster but costly to setup as CNC Tenoner is £20k and limited in my case to 50mm in length of tenon though it can do round/square tenons and dowel tenon. The CNC Mortiser with oscillating and router head configuration is going to be in the region of £30k but oscillating is slow.

As for rods, I always make them first and use them for marking timber to shoulders/position joints. I do not see the benefit of making a rod for the opposite unless doing a one off and no particular difficulty to make or designed with curves or arches so no rod needed. Rod's are to repeat manufacture of multiples to size. This is not the sole need of a rod and can be utilised to exact size on site and bring back to the workshop and not rely on size(tape) alone. Like worktops in granite, you make up a rod/template to full size with layout and cut later of site.

I still wonder about the tapering of this chisel, through wear you will get smaller as you go further up the chisel or am I missing something. I would hope my chisel be parallel all the way up in use and longevity of ownership. But as a irregular fault or a faulty example I can except the issue and as mentioned it has been offered to be replaced, sound

 

[Jacob]

I use a rod one way or another even for fairly simple one offs. You have to measure and mark everything anyway so you might as well do it in one go on a board and then lift your marks off, knowing that everything will fit.

 

[Vann]

It's about using the tools.

Err.. No, not necessarily.

This section is titled "Hand Tools", not "Using Hand Tools". It includes: repairing hand tools; refurbing hand tools; sharpening hand tools; using hand tools and; collecting hand tools.

So ANY discussion involving hand tools is legit. Trashing other people's views is suspect.

I note that some modern chisels are sold as both metric and imperial i.e "1/2 inch, 12mm". I've only seen this on bevel edged chisels. Maybe the discrepancy isn't so crucial on non-mortice chisels :?:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[promhandicam]

It's about using the tools.

Err.. No, not necessarily.

Sadly, for some at least, I don't think that Jacob has grasped the fact that there many members of UKWorkshop who have little or in some cases no interest in actually using the tools and equipment that they acquire and the number who actually try to make a living from using them is relatively small, although I fall into that category. Each to their own, and if you are happy sitting in your shed honing your chisels whilst waiting for the hairs to grow back on the back of your hand or you get a thrill rubbing camellia oil on your planes whilst reading the axminster catalogue that is fine by me - at least you are off the streets! :wink:

I know Jacob winds some people up - only he knows if he does it deliberately or not - however I for one have learnt more about certain aspects of woodworking from Jacobs posts than from many others, and that is ultimately what this forum is intended for -

From the Home page of UKWorkshop:

This site was built to help people of any age to learn the basics of woodworking.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Jacob]

:lol: :lol:
That's a killer quote, says it all:

It's about using the tools.

Err.. No, not necessarily.

 

[jimi43]

I think Steve's post is one of the most calm, accurate and understanding posts on an otherwise trashed thread.

There are people who are just interested in making basic things, there are people who pride themselves in making fine furniture or glorious exotic wood bowls.

There are those who simply admire high-tech tools, fine hand tools or vintage masterpieces of the toolmaker's art.

Generally speaking, most fall somewhere in between.

There are those who want to make jigs...the ultimate sharpening jig or the perfect mouse-trap.

ALL of these types practice woodworking or working with wood and should be welcome here to show their art, their latest toy or a lump of wood they picked up from a skip which turns out to be from deep in the Amazon rainforest!!

I think all of this is accepted by most here....

Jim

 

[Jacob]

I don't understand what is meant by "trashed thread". It seems to have covered some interesting ground without wandering too far off. NB we are still waiting for LuptonM to measure his tools in the right place!
I admit - it does feel like intruding into some sort of tooly religious rite sometimes (all singing from the same sheet :roll: ). Maybe a notice on the door? Do not disturb?