Mortiser or Drill press

[warrenbatt]

HI all, need some advice!

I am looking to buy a new drill press and I am going to be drilling some fairly large holes (25mm+) into some horribly hard wood. (Cumaru, Bubinga and even some Ipe!) I also will be cutting mortises in the same wood.

My question is this, I have around 800 quid to throw at the problem and am wondering if I am better splitting the cash between two machines, a drill press and a mortiser or making sure I get at least one of the jobs done properly and buying one quality item.

Before you all say ebay, I live in Spain and ebay is a waste of time here so there is no way I am going to get one there.

What do I do??

Please help, Im really quite confused

 

[big soft moose]

HI all, need some advice!

I am looking to buy a new drill press and I am going to be drilling some fairly large holes (25mm+) into some horribly hard wood. (Cumaru, Bubinga and even some Ipe!) I also will be cutting mortises in the same wood.

My question is this, I have around 800 quid to throw at the problem and am wondering if I am better splitting the cash between two machines, a drill press and a mortiser or making sure I get at least one of the jobs done properly and buying one quality item.

Before you all say ebay, I live in Spain and ebay is a waste of time here so there is no way I am going to get one there.

What do I do??

Please help, Im really quite confused

axminster will ship to spain (and other EU countries) - most quality morticers can be reasonably easy converted to pillar drill by the simple expedient of taking the chisel off , so my suggestion would be to buy a good quality morticer.

also the real trick behind drilling holes in hard wod is having razor sharp quality bits - so i'd suggest spending a proportion of the money on some top flight forstners or augers of the diameters you want to drill.

 

[Eric The Viking]

HI all, need some advice!

I am looking to buy a new drill press and I am going to be drilling some fairly large holes (25mm+) into some horribly hard wood. (Cumaru, Bubinga and even some Ipe!) I also will be cutting mortises in the same wood.

My question is this, I have around 800 quid to throw at the problem and am wondering if I am better splitting the cash between two machines, a drill press and a mortiser or making sure I get at least one of the jobs done properly and buying one quality item.

Before you all say ebay, I live in Spain and ebay is a waste of time here so there is no way I am going to get one there.

What do I do??

Please help, Im really quite confused

axminster will ship to spain (and other EU countries) - most quality morticers can be reasonably easy converted to pillar drill by the simple expedient of taking the chisel off , so my suggestion would be to buy a good quality morticer.

also the real trick behind drilling holes in hard wod is having razor sharp quality bits - so i'd suggest spending a proportion of the money on some top flight forstners or augers of the diameters you want to drill.

What 'ee said, AND make sure you get a sharpening kit for the mortice chisels, for the same reason as good drills. I got the Axminster one for around 35 pounds, and it's fine for the job. As a hint, you'll get better results with a dab of cutting compound (such as Trefolex, NOT an abrasive!) on the conical reamer, and it'll last longer too.

 

[warrenbatt]

Thanks for the advice guys, if its not to much to ask I need a touch more! Axminster have a supplier over here who stocks a limited range of their products and they sell the following Mortise machine, any comments or knowledge of this one?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/6/prod ... 649842.htm

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks for the advice guys, if its not to much to ask I need a touch more! Axminster have a supplier over here who stocks a limited range of their products and they sell the following Mortise machine, any comments or knowledge of this one?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/6/prod ... 649842.htm

I've got the inexpensive little sliding-table one. Sliding tables are great, so the one you suggest ought to be wonderful. Coupla-thoughts: stick sandpaper to the clamps to vastly improve the grip (you don't need as much pressure, either), and unlike the fixed-table versions there will inevitably be metal under the auger. It's not quite as bad as hitting a drill press table, but I'd still make sure there is a really solid mechanical stop to prevent you bottoming the bit.

Also, although dust extraction is considered unnecessary, I position a really powerful vacuum pipe close to the chisel and the mortice I'm cutting, so the waste is removed, not just piled up to fall back into the mortice. It reduces the load on the chisel especially, and you can see what you're doing far better.

If you don't need the tilt function you could save quite a bit, but given you want it for drilling too, I can see the attraction. It looks like a good machine.

 

[cerdeira]

Hi.

I have that very machine you're referring to. I've done 12mm mortices on hardwood with it easily, and also used the tilting head for some angled ended mortices (for wedging). Is has a few issues: the clamp although fast action is not very effective (the sand paper trick can help though), the side table stops are not very rigid, and the morticing table does not move forward enough if you want to make small mortices near to the board edge and you must resort to an auxiliary back fence.

I've also got the axminster attachment chuck for using it as a drill press. It works but a word of caution here: the motor is not powerful enough and I've managed to stall it while trying to cut 12mm plugs. Granted, the plug cutter is likely to bind on the wood and requires a lot of torque but my old 500w handheld drill (mounted on a column) was capable of doing it...

 

[warrenbatt]

hmm, that doesnt sound very promising. I will be cutting holes much bigger than 12mm.

Maybe I should consider one of the bench top mortisers and a proper drill press. decisions, decisions, always so difficult!

Thanks everyone and keep it coming

 

[Mike H]

Your budget is going to be stretched unless the holes are not too deep.

I have had to drill a lot of holes in Bubinga recently and it is not fun!

With Bubinga and Ipe, you will destroy a cheap morticer and drill doing it, or at least blunt more bits than tought possible if going deeper than 1.5 inches. Drills will melt readily.

I have had great success with the router for this. Make a jig with a recess for a guide bush, a not too thick plate that you can clamp on the work really firmly. Before you make the recess mark the plate for the true centre with 2 lines. Then start with a half inch spiral, as long as poss., which should give you a good start. Then move onto a one inch bit, Axminster have cheap one, just buy a few.

After that you will have a perpendicular hole that you can drill into. Spiral brace type bits with the screw end filed off work better than conventional drills.

This worked for me in the past few months for workbench holes and large mortices.

Another thing: If you are going to put screws into Bubinga, make sure they are top quality and butch, well pre-drilled. But tapping for metal bolts works a treat.


Best of luck


Mike


8)

 

[warrenbatt]

Thanks mike, good thinking

 

[big soft moose]

personally i'd see if you can stretch the budget a few hundred quid and get a sedgewick 571

also in general terms any drill is going to struggle doing 25mm holes in bubinga etc - i would suggest you drill out 12mm holes first then whiden them - also use a forstner or an auger rather than a plug cutter

 

[Mike H]

My suggestion is cheaper because you are likely to have a Router anyway and the carbide bits come in very handy for other jobs, but indeed if you can stretch your budget the Sedgwick is the type of beast that would do the mortices, but nothing else.

Mike

8)

 

[big soft moose]

My suggestion is cheaper because you are likely to have a Router anyway and the carbide bits come in very handy for other jobs, but indeed if you can stretch your budget the Sedgwick is the type of beast that would do the mortices, but nothing else.

Mike

8)

you can get a drill adaptor for the 571 - i know because weve got one - its not ideal but it would still in my view be preferable to buying two cheap machines.

I'm not knocking the router idea generally but cutting deep mortices in very hard wood like bubinga will put a lot of stress on a router motor and mounts

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm not knocking the router idea generally but cutting deep mortices in very hard wood like bubinga will put a lot of stress on a router motor and mounts

As a newbie morticer-owner I've a question for the hardened professionals:

Is it easier to mortice really hard materials with a router rather than a morticer?

I'd guess 'yes' on the basis that the ability to mortice square holes in really tough wood comes down entirely to the strength of yer right arm (and/or your weight!) and the sharpness or the chisel. If you can't get the chisel sharp enough, it'll be a horrible job.

On the other hand, cutting really hard wood with sharp bits on a router is at least in part down to the power of the motor. And you can take it slowly, at least to an extent (burning wood notwithstanding).

So am I talking myself into selling the morticer after all, or just talking c... :duno:

 

[big soft moose]

I'm not knocking the router idea generally but cutting deep mortices in very hard wood like bubinga will put a lot of stress on a router motor and mounts

As a newbie morticer-owner I've a question for the hardened professionals:

Is it easier to mortice really hard materials with a router rather than a morticer?

I'd guess 'yes' on the basis that the ability to mortice square holes in really tough wood comes down entirely to the strength of yer right arm (and/or your weight!) and the sharpness or the chisel. If you can't get the chisel sharp enough, it'll be a horrible job.

On the other hand, cutting really hard wood with sharp bits on a router is at least in part down to the power of the motor. And you can take it slowly, at least to an extent (burning wood notwithstanding).

So am I talking myself into selling the morticer after all, or just talking c... :duno:

i'm not exactly a hardened profesional except when it comes to cuting dirty great mortices in oak or ecodeck , but we tried the router route while our morticer was out of action last year and after doing about 25 oak posts (so arround 75 mortices 3/4ins by 5 ins by 2 ins deep) we had compleleted fckd the router (ryobi ert 1/2ins)

by contrast the morticer ( a multico M type ) did hundreds if not thousands of posts in the years we had it and was still in good relatively good nick when i sold it to JmcK (the out of action was caused by a duff reset switch and bob fixed that for us) - I only sold it because we had money to spend up for year end, and the sedgewick was temptingly discounted.

the other thing to consider is that unless you build yourself the maskery jig or similar router cut mortices will have rounded corners - not a problem if you also cut your tenons with a router so they are round too , but if your tenons (or in our case signs) are square edged , you then find yourself squaring off countless mortices in hard wood by hand which while possible is not a good day out (particularly when you have 75 to do)

 

[Shane]

I'd agree with cerdeir, I have the fixed head version of that morticer, although it is great for mortices, I doubt it would have the torque to cut large holes.

 

[Eric The Viking]

This might be a separate thread, so I've changed the title

I'm not exactly a hardened profesional except when it comes to cuting dirty great mortices in oak or ecodeck , but we tried the router route while our morticer was out of action last year and after doing about 25 oak posts (so arround 75 mortices 3/4ins by 5 ins by 2 ins deep) we had compleleted fckd the router (ryobi ert 1/2ins)

by contrast the morticer ( a multico M type ) did hundreds if not thousands of posts in the years we had it and was still in good relatively good nick when i sold it to JmcK (the out of action was caused by a duff reset switch and bob fixed that for us) - I only sold it because we had money to spend up for year end, and the sedgewick was temptingly discounted.

the other thing to consider is that unless you build yourself the maskery jig or similar router cut mortices will have rounded corners - not a problem if you also cut your tenons with a router so they are round too , but if your tenons (or in our case signs) are square edged , you then find yourself squaring off countless mortices in hard wood by hand which while possible is not a good day out (particularly when you have 75 to do)

Fair enough, which prompts the obvious question: how do you get/keep a good edge on the morticer chisels?

I've just done some in Idigbo, with a chisel I thought was horribly sharp (got the scar to prove it!), but the mortices came out badly: it didn't pare the wood at all well (sort-of crunched through it), and even cutting in from both sides, I still got a bit of tear-out. It improved after a squirt of PTFE coating, and I'm going to try polishing up the flats, but I'd hoped for better. I did hone the chisel carefully before starting too.

I also got a distinct mark from the auger along the sides. It was OK for the casement I was making (paint will hide it), but it would've been a nuisance in finer work. I can't decide if the auger is oversize slightly, or out of true (the chisel itself is about 0.52", which is annoying, but both the half-inch ones I have are a bit oversize).

So am I missing something, or is the answer to swallow hard and buy Clico?

 

[big soft moose]

we've got one of those mortice chisel sharpener doofers from axminster - 20 odd quid well spent in my view.

we also rub the sides of the chisel with a candle periodically.

I can't comment on cutting exotics but it does okay in 10 year old oak

as to the lines are you absolutely sure your chisel is perfectly square to the fence ?

 

[cerdeira]

I also got a distinct mark from the auger along the sides.

I have exactly the same problem with some chisels (and I'm talking about good quality japanese ones). Apparently the bit is not exactly concentric with the chisel and tends to wander favouring one side. this is aggravated by the fact that it must be set up to allow for chip clearance and so the very tip spins "unsupported".

One solution might be to grind the auger's spur a little bit taking care that its face remains parallel to the mortice face. ie. avoid tapering it.

I don't know if those brit pattern augers are better in this respect.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I also got a distinct mark from the auger along the sides.

I have exactly the same problem with some chisels (and I'm talking about good quality japanese ones). Apparently the bit is not exactly concentric with the chisel and tends to wander favouring one side. this is aggravated by the fact that it must be set up to allow for chip clearance and so the very tip spins "unsupported".

One solution might be to grind the auger's spur a little bit taking care that its face remains parallel to the mortice face. ie. avoid tapering it.

I don't know if those brit pattern augers are better in this respect.

I've got one of each in 1/2". The Axminster ones that came on offer with the morticer are Brit pattern (at least the spiral is), and the one I ended-up using is Japanese-style. I did try running the side of the Axminster one on a stone, as it wandered quite badly, and re-cutting the central point so that it was truer (it's a nominally-square pyramid, so if you grind it asymetrically, you move the point). I didn't use it because at some time in the process I think I upset the chip clearance, resulting in clogging and much smoke.

Things to try now it's cleared:

1. best-working auger in the other chisel
2. re-sharpening the Axminster set and trying again
3. re-grinding the Axminster auger to be the same width or a gnat's narrower than the chisel. It's almost this now, but I'll take another look at sharpness of the lip and the spur first.
4. trying a different coin as spacer (a standard 2p worked well, but I've a feeling it could be a gnat's less).

I think Idigbo is a right PITA to work with though. I can get lovely fine shavings, but it's like heavyweight balsa wood, and marks and tears really easily.

I noticed when I removed the chisel and auger, having only done four smallish mortices, that there was a really high polish on the inside bevel of the chisel, and a matching shine on the conical bit of the auger.
That can only help, but it's a worry how fast it developed.