Mortice locks positioning

[pgrbff]

I have always built doors for older properties with substantial middle/lock rails. I have just built a half-glazed door with a narrow middle rail, 85mm, and narrow stiles, also 85mm. A 63mm mortice lock would completely remove the tenon. If I want a mortice lock what are my options?
I'm self-taught so no commercial experience.

 

[Doug71]

You could use a separate latch and deadlock.

Put the latch in the middle of the lock rail and the deadlock somewhere above in the stile.

You can get deadlocks that are only about 2" deep, Google narrow deadlock.

Edit to say you can also get narrow sash locks if you want the latch and lock together in the stile.

 

[JSW]

I was taught a mortice lock never goes in line with the middle rail due to it (mostly) destroying the joint, sometimes it's unavoidable, but as a rule of thumb it stands

 

[johnnyb]

I've done that a few times. Latches from ironmongery have upto 127mm backset perfect for knobs. Also narrow nightlatches exist although some insurers don't like(I think there compliant ones available though) many people don't give hoot.
My concern would always be sag potential with such a narrow rail. Add a brace somewhere may help. The wider those 2 rails the more they resist droop.(without bracing)
Even twin tenons are only a partial solution evolved for those large deep victorian locks with the rounded bottom.

 

[pgrbff]

You could use a separate latch and deadlock.

Put the latch in the middle of the lock rail and the deadlock somewhere above in the stile.

You can get deadlocks that are only about 2" deep, Google narrow deadlock.

Edit to say you can also get narrow sash locks if you want the latch and lock together in the stile.

I've always thought 63mm was the narrowest. I have latch and lock 63mm. I can only find one 2" mortice deadlock.

 

[pgrbff]

I was taught a mortice lock never goes in line with the middle rail due to it (mostly) destroying the joint, sometimes it's unavoidable, but as a rule of thumb it stands

That has always been my thought. Most of the interior doors I have made have been in C18 buildings and have had rim locks.

 

[pgrbff]

Are the Yale mortice latches any good? Latches aren't very common in Italy and Yale is the only name I recognise on the likes of Amazon.

 

[johnnyb]

Not really these days being honest. The names familiarity has made them only fit for b and q.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

One of our glazed wooden external doors has a narrow lock-stile with - I think - 52mm depth mortice locks. I've changed the lock a couple of times over the years and found that replacement locks are very difficult to source. Last time I bought 2 so that I'm future proofed for at least a good few more years to come. I'll try to dig out a link.

 

[pgrbff]

One of our glazed wooden external doors has a narrow lock-stile with - I think - 52mm depth mortice locks. I've changed the lock a couple of times over the years and found that replacement locks are very difficult to source. Last time I bought 2 so that I'm future proofed for at least a good few more years to come. I'll try to dig out a link.

The Legge 5511 is no longer made but the tooling was bought and the lock is still being made. Just a deadlock. But it will cost twice that by the time I get it in Italy.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

The Legge 5511 is no longer made but the tooling was bought and the lock is still being made. Just a deadlock. But it will cost twice that by the time I get it in Italy.

Damn that Brexit.

Here's one that is a little less expensive:

Willenhall M4 Copy


I'm sure that I've also seen 2" setback deadlocks with a Euro style key barrel opening...

 

[johnnyb]

Those short backsets are common on upvc doors come to think.

 

[johnnyb]

It says those locks aren't bs approved. So I'd definitely consider a deadlocking nightlatch.

 

[Fergie 307]

Are the Yale mortice latches any good? Latches aren't very common in Italy and Yale is the only name I recognise on the likes of Amazon.

If you are in Italy can you not use the surface mount locks they go in for, with the added option of bolts that shoot out of the top and bottom to secure the door upper and lower edges as well, can't remember the maker but very common there.

 

[pgrbff]

If you are in Italy can you not use the surface mount locks they go in for, with the added option of bolts that shoot out of the top and bottom to secure the door upper and lower edges as well, can't remember the maker but very common there.

Theyre not very pretty and the door opens into a hayloft so the strike, which is only held on with a couple of screws could easily be opened to gain access without a key.

 

[Fergie 307]

I agree they do have a certain industrial quality! Very good if on the inside.

 

[niall Y]

Mortise locks are traditionally placed at the middle rail position. If you look at virtually any Victorian door you will see this to be the case, The locks were also quite long, having to allow for hand clearance around the knob that operates the latch.

It is true that the chopping of the mortise compromises the pair of mortises of the middle rail, but there was an additional refinement for high class work. Here the tenons on the middle rail were not only paired bur double.

There is a mention on page 142/143 of George Ellis's - Modern Practical Joinery - that notes - " A pair of double tenons is used in middle rails of doors that are intended to receive mortise locks"

Though personal experience has taught me that this was more of an aspiration than a reality.