Mock ye not !!

[David C]

Old Eclipse guides have a more delicate body size than the modern Far Eastern copies.

This may explain the scrub plane blade issue.

Blades which need honing by hand, are naturally done by hand.

David

 

[matthewwh]

Why hone a scrub at all?

The surface it produces will be replaced by the later planes - fore, jack etc.

It is used across the grain (weakest direction) rather than along it, so you are going to get a splintery mess anyway.

If you use a very light touch with the final pass on the grinder / linisher / belt sander you can get a perfectly adequate edge that cuts across the grain with little resistance.

If you are going to hone one, I would hold the blade still and move the stone over it, as you would when stoning an axe.

 

[Corneel]

Blades which need honing by hand, are naturally done by hand.

David

I rest my case

 

[dj.]

Why hone a scrub at all?

The surface it produces will be replaced by the later planes - fore, jack etc.

It is used across the grain (weakest direction) rather than along it, so you are going to get a splintery mess anyway.

If you use a very light touch with the final pass on the grinder / linisher / belt sander you can get a perfectly adequate edge that cuts across the grain with little resistance.

If you are going to hone one, I would hold the blade still and move the stone over it, as you would when stoning an axe.

Steady Mathew, adding common sense to these sharpening debacles is the last thing we need.

"ding ding" round 2



Regards.

dj.

 

[woodbrains]

If you are going to hone one, I would hold the blade still and move the stone over it, as you would when stoning an axe.

Hello,

I said much the same in the other thread. There is almost nothing in common with honing a plane/ bench chisels, with things having curved edges like gouges, axes, severely cambered blades. Either the stone is taken to the tool, or the tool's width is held longitudinally on the stone whilst rolling it. Plane irons etc are presented transversely with arms locked to maintain the angle, and no rocking in any direction. Even slightly cambering blades is achieved by increasing pressure alternately at each corner, rather than physically rolling the tool. Whether honing freehand or jigged, there are no real transferable skills here and no disadvantage to a jig honer, when it comes to sharpening other stuff. I know, I'd do both and there is no problem sharpening gouges freehand if I want, I don't feel I have not had enough practice from the flat blades being jigged.

Also, it is perfectly valid in a teaching situation, to get the students tools sharp by the most expedient method. These students pay good money to learn many aspects of woodworking and need/ want to use tools and get results from the off. Labouring on freehand sharpening, is not going to help things progress. Besides, it is important that the students get to experience what true sharpness is, so they understand what needs to be achieved. Once this is understood, it frees them to get the sharp edges however they think fit from then on. It is surprising how many people think they have been sharpening well for years, until they are shown a truly sharp edge, and what it can do. It causes universal amazement, I think David C will agree. I remember my time at college, which was filled with woodworkers of varying degrees, but all with some experience. Of the 20 there, about 4 knew what truly sharp was and how to acheive it. ( I'm sure David will confirm that these proportions are repeated similarly in his classes ) To the rest, it was an epiphany. Incidentally, pupils there were not really taught to sharpen in any particular fashion. It was more of a, ' this is how it can be done and this is what sharp looks like' approach. Everyone found their own way, and everyone got sharp.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Why hone a scrub at all?

The surface it produces will be replaced by the later planes - fore, jack etc.

It is used across the grain (weakest direction) rather than along it, so you are going to get a splintery mess anyway.

If you use a very light touch with the final pass on the grinder / linisher / belt sander you can get a perfectly adequate edge that cuts across the grain with little resistance.

If you are going to hone one, I would hold the blade still and move the stone over it, as you would when stoning an axe.

The distinction between honing and sharpening is a bit artificial. From coarse grinding to fine "honing" is a continuum and every step is "sharpening".
Yes a perfectly acceptable edge is obtainable on a linisher etc, but ditto freehand on a coarse stone. And you can then progress to a finer stone as far as you can be bothered.
And scrubs can be used along the grain too. They are good for rapid removal of board edges. I've taken to using one where previously I might have used an axe . Say you want to remove 10mm or so from a thin board edge it can actually be quicker than using the band saw, if the plane is to hand.

PS just read the above
Plane irons etc are presented transversely with arms locked to maintain the angle, and no rocking in any direction.
My arms don't lock :shock: and I do rock the blade :shock: and they do seem to get sharpened quite quickly :shock:
What am I doing wrong? NB I "maintain the angle" by "looking" at it and keeping it near or below 30º.
Labouring on freehand sharpening, is not going to help things progress. I agree I think you should stop labouring and relax a bit. All this arm locking and rigidity sounds like painful contortionism and adds nothing to the sharpening process - unless you are a bit of a masochist? Hmm, is that what it's all about? Well smack me! :lol:

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, the arm flapping that you do is not what anyone here recognises as sharpening whilst maintaining a fixed, flat, bevel angle ( primary or secondary) The idea of locking arms and wrists to acheive repeatability is nothing strange to anyone here except those with anomalous practices. I'm sure someone somewhere sharpens with their feet, but I cannot describe a method which takes into account these eccentricities.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

Jacob, the arm flapping that you do is not what anyone here recognises as sharpening whilst maintaining a fixed, flat, bevel angle ( primary or secondary) The idea of locking arms and wrists to acheive repeatability is nothing strange to anyone here except those with anomalous practices. I'm sure someone somewhere sharpens with their feet, but I cannot describe a method which takes into account these eccentricities.

Mike.

But nobody needs a fixed flat bevel. That's the whole point.
We are getting there slowly - it's been about 5 years since I first brought this up!
A slightly rounded bevel is perfectly OK as long as the edge is close to the desired angle, usually 30º.
There is no point in a rounded bevel as such, except that if you adopt an easy relaxed attitude to sharpening it is a (harmless) byproduct.

The idea of locking arms and wrists to acheive repeatability is nothing strange to anyone here . I realise that. Who came up with this stupid idea? They haven't half wasted a lot of people's time. Probably brought on early arthritis in the process! Stop doing it immediately, it can't be good for you and it's pointless!

PS and there's nothing wrong with a perfectly flat fixed bevel if that's what you want, but getting one freehand is not easy, as you make clear. How is the back BTW? Any stiffness in the wrist area?

 

[Sheffield Tony]

There seems to be a lot of sophistry going on here. Of course you can sharpen a scrub iron with a jig - either a different design of guide (I find an old Record one does the job nicely), or a narrower stone will help. Or find yourself a nicely dished old stone that nobody else wants anymore and you won't even need to rock it side to side :lol:

Also, it is perfectly valid in a teaching situation, to get the students tools sharp by the most expedient method. These students pay good money to learn many aspects of woodworking and need/ want to use tools and get results from the off. Labouring on freehand sharpening, is not going to help things progress. Besides, it is important that the students get to experience what true sharpness is, so they understand what needs to be achieved. Once this is understood, it frees them to get the sharp edges however they think fit from then on.

I agree with this. I have only been on one woodworking course since I left school a few years ago :wink:, that one was green woodworking. The most tedious thing is when the woodworking comes to a stop to talk sharpening.

 

[Corneel]

If you are going to hone one, I would hold the blade still and move the stone over it, as you would when stoning an axe.

Hello,

I said much the same in the other thread. There is almost nothing in common with honing a plane/ bench chisels, with things having curved edges like gouges, axes, severely cambered blades. Either the stone is taken to the tool, or the tool's width is held longitudinally on the stone whilst rolling it. Plane irons etc are presented transversely with arms locked to maintain the angle, and no rocking in any direction. Even slightly cambering blades is achieved by increasing pressure alternately at each corner, rather than physically rolling the tool. Whether honing freehand or jigged, there are no real transferable skills here and no disadvantage to a jig honer, when it comes to sharpening other stuff. I know, I'd do both and there is no problem sharpening gouges freehand if I want, I don't feel I have not had enough practice from the flat blades being jigged.

Mike.

You sound like someone who competes in downhill biking but puts trainingwheels on his citybike. If you can reliably sharpen a gouge, why on earth do you bother with a jig for something mundane like a chisel? And yes it is exactly the same, however you move the tool over the stone and with flapping arms or not. You need to target a honing angle in both cases.

 

[Jacob]

.... Of course you can sharpen a scrub iron with a jig - either a different design of guide (I find an old Record one does the job nicely), or a narrower stone will help.

Yebbut why would you bother when it's so easy freehand?

Or find yourself a nicely dished old stone that nobody else wants anymore and you won't even need to rock it side to side :lol: .......

Perfectly easy on a flat stone - more of a twist than rock n roll.

It's really weird that these simple procedures are portrayed as so difficult. Much of woodworking is far more difficult than simple freehand sharpening. We all do more difficult things every day. Hitting a darts board is more difficult. Think of all those ball games played. Musical instruments. All more difficult than holding a plane blade at 30º - which a trained chimpanzee could probably manage!
I'd say sharpening a pencil is about the same level of difficulty as sharpening a chisel. Come to think I know people who can't sharpen a pencil but I bet they could manage a chisel.
Wossit all about? Mass hysteria? Brain washing?

 

[Jacob]

I think I can safely bring the whole sharpening thing to a definitive conclusion.
If you are highly skilled, don't use a honing guide. However if you are unskilled, a bit of an amateur, then feel free to use as many guides as you wish.

+1 (but don't spoil the argument)

Just to fan the flames a bit, a guide can be useful to get the original blade angle back as well as just for honing and I'm sure even the pro's like some sort of guide when doing this initial work

Yes I've done that with old planes. First thing with a rusty old blade covered in cobwebs is to put it in a jig at 30º and give it a quick sharpen - just 2 or 3 passes. It shows up instantly all the defects of the edge and you can see what needs doing - sometimes surprisingly little.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

.... Of course you can sharpen a scrub iron with a jig - either a different design of guide (I find an old Record one does the job nicely), or a narrower stone will help.

Yebbut why would you bother when it's so easy freehand?

I am only an amateur, so what I do / find easy / find hard might not count for much, but I sharpen a range of tools - including gouges, knives, pole lathe tools as well as plane irons and chisels.

All but the plane irons and the wider chisels I do as I was taught in school - wet grinder and freehand hone on an oilstone, India and/or Arkansas. For plane blades and wide chisels I use a guide. Why ? Because it is quick and easy, and relieves me of the concentration needed to sharpen, say, an in-cannel gouge properly. Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean it is the easiest or best way. It is easy to mess up freehand - the odd stroke with your blade too steep is all that is needed to raise the bevel angle, very little steel to remove. But drop your had a little and you can spend an age removing steel with no effect whatsoever on the cutting edge sharpness. And once you (inadvertently or otherwise) no longer have a single flat honing bevel, you lose tactile feedback.

I also suspect it is because I'm an engineer and like the lovely crisp look of the flat bevels it produces. I am sure the wood doesn't notice though.

BTW, I am no good at playing darts, ball games or musical instruments either.

 

[chipmunk]

I don't want to get into this argument (really) but I feel I must be missing out on something?

Here's the confession - I always consider sharpening as a bit of a nuisance and definitely more of a means to an end than an end in itself.

I am mainly a woodturner and I admit to freehand grinding my swept back gouges but in the current climate this sets me apart from the norm where most people grind with jigs. In my case it's certainly not for "religeous reasons" :wink: It's 100% because I'm a tight sod who isn't prepared to pay the wad required for a fancy jig but if I was given one I readily admit that I'd probably use it.

I do use a cheap Stanley pressed steel jig for plane irons and chisels although I also have an Eclipse one but the cheap Stanley has nice measuring rules that stick out front to set the angles.

...but neither gives me much enjoyment - am I the only one?

Jon

 

[Jacob]

...
...but neither gives me much enjoyment - am I the only one?

Jon

I actually like sharpening. It's something I look forwards to as a little break from the other work. And then very satisfying to feel the difference as a chisel cuts instead of crunching through the grain. But this only since I got into freehand - I always found jigs to be a PITA and it's a great relief to leave them behind.
I've got a big box of old woodies to do something with (another story :roll: ) but the idea of taking out 40 rusty knackered blades and getting each one going is quite an attractive challenge for an idle hour or so.
It takes all sorts!

 

[woodbrains]

You sound like someone who competes in downhill biking but puts trainingwheels on his citybike. If you can reliably sharpen a gouge, why on earth do you bother with a jig for something mundane like a chisel? And yes it is exactly the same, however you move the tool over the stone and with flapping arms or not. You need to target a honing angle in both cases.

Hello,

Ahh, but this is the point. I have no built in protractor, but may like to choose an angle which the bevel is not naturally going to give me just by feel. I might want an included angle of 30 deg, composed of a 20 deg primary bevel and a 10 degree back bevel and turn my plane into a middle pitch smoother for cranky grain. I might want a 38 deg bevel in a BU smoother, a 45 deg in a scraper plane, a 22 for a pairing chisel for punky end grain. It is fun to know what I'm doing and I like to know what works for future repeatability. Not for everyone, perhaps, but definitely something I like to do, and I know others do also.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

..... I have no built in protractor,

Wot no brain?

but may like to choose an angle which the bevel is not naturally going to give me just by feel. I might want an included angle of 30 deg, composed of a 20 deg primary bevel and a 10 degree back bevel and turn my plane into a middle pitch smoother for cranky grain. I might want a 38 deg bevel in a BU smoother, a 45 deg in a scraper plane, a 22 for a pairing chisel for punky end grain. It is fun to know what I'm doing and I like to know what works for future repeatability. Not for everyone, perhaps, but definitely something I like to do, and I know others do also.

Mike.

30 is easy - 1/3 of a right angle. a gradient of 1/2, half the corner of an equilateral triangle etc
90 is easy
45 is easy (half 90)
15 is easy (1/2 of 30 or 1/3 of 45)
etc etc other angle being a tweaK more or less than the easy ones
but we all know that you don't really need all these angles - or you would have to be changing blades/angles as you worked your way along the same piece of wild wood. You'd never finish anything!
What are you working on at the mo? Any WIPs?

PS It might help if you practiced visualising bevel angles, perhaps with your arm in the air like this chap - having a go at 15º

OK I removed it!

 

[iNewbie]

Is it Godwins Law time already...

 

[Corneel]

Oh please Jacob, no that. Can you still remove that image?

 

[iNewbie]

What, that picture of Hitler?