Mitre/Glue up nightmare

[Lons]

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on this guys teqnique for closing the last joint....might be worth skipping to the back end of the video for you experienced blokes its about the 5 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m4jEiekLKY

I use stretchy pvc repair tape and clamp the 4th corner to a simple L jig though I have picture framing clamps which can sometimes be used.

Never seen the final corner done like that - interesting :!:
Thanks for sharing

I have used mitre bond successfully as well on small projects. I use this almost exclusively for cornice and pelmet in kitchen fitting and found it to give a very strong bond in a matter of seconds. http://www.axminster.co.uk/mitre-bond-a ... rod782749/ Can get similar from Screwfix / Toolstation etc. often with spray activator rather than pen

Bob

 

[Jacob]

....

I wouldn't say this is an easier or easy joint IMHO.

I've made loads of boxes (used to make toys) and believe me this is an easy way - once you have set it up and done a few trial runs. It also solves the clamping problem. It's a more usual way than the full mitre, which is difficult. It's one of several solutions to easier box making.

... the need for accuracy is still there if you want a clean, tight joint on the mitre itself.

Easier because only one side of the joint is mitred, the other takes care of itself

.......
As it's a small box, I assume the components aren't overly thick so i'd gauge a line and part it with a tenon saw and clean the cut with a blockplane - ...

A TS or a band saw it's much neater and quicker than doing it by hand. With the right blade the cut can be near perfect. Block plane around a box edge is not easy. If it needs tidying it's the work of seconds to apply the whole box open side to a sheet of sandpaper - neatly fixed to your granite plate etc if you are in to that sort of thing! If necessary work through several grits. This guarantees flat meeting face between top and box, and you would quite likely have to do this anyway even after having a go with a block plane.

 

[andy king]

Easier because only one side of the joint is mitred, the other takes care of itself

Explain. In your sketch you show both components with a small mitre, not one. Please explain, tell me how one side of a joint 'can take care of itself'.
A step by step on cutting the joint and the tools and machines needed would be useful as well.

Andy

 

[Jacob]

Easier because only one side of the joint is mitred, the other takes care of itself

Explain. In your sketch you show both components with a small mitre, not one. Please explain properly, don't say 'think about it', tell me how one side of a joint 'can take care of itself'.
A step by step on cutting the joint and the tools and machines needed would be useful as well.

Andy

Just have a look and think about!
Inside of the box the joint is a simple butt joint which can't go wrong (takes care of itself), so there's only a single mitre joint on the outside of the box. You only have to get these two edges to meet neatly - the inside edge of this little mitre is hidden so it needn't be spot on as long as it is good on the visible outside. Unlike a through mitre which is visible from both sides.
By all means do a step by step if you want to! Feel free.

NB A full mitred box corner is not just difficult but also it's not strong. It's an end grain plain butted joint. It's really a "show" joint i.e. to show that you can do it, but not a very practical option. You can end up having to make mitre shooting boxes etc, with another whole set of different little problems. :shock:

 

[xy mosian]

Thinking about getting opposing sides exactly the same length. Why not double up on the width of the sides until the mitres are shot, and then split along the length.

e.g On a box with side 50mm high, cut pieces at 100mm wide, long enough for the ends and front/back. One of each. Cut and shoot the mitres, then split the pieces to 50mm. Hey Presto! Opposing sides exactly the same length.

xy

 

[RogerP]

Thinking about getting opposing sides exactly the same length. Why not double up on the width of the sides until the mitres are shot, and then split along the length.
e.g On a box with side 50mm high, cut pieces at 100mm wide, long enough for the ends and front/back. One of each. Cut and shoot the mitres, then split the pieces to 50mm. Hey Presto! Opposing sides exactly the same length.
xy

I've done that on occasions and it's certainly a foolproof method.

However, by first cutting on the table/bandsaw then using the shooting board it's very easy to correct minor differences in length one plane stroke at a time.

 

[monkeybiter]

I think it's fairly easy to understand what Jacob's getting at, his part mitred joint allows for innaccuracy on the mitre angle and SOME innaccuracy on length. Like anything else it's probably easy once you're set up and used to doing them. Certainly glue-up would be a doddle.

However the joint won't be hidden on the exposed body/lid surface, and if you're doing a box with mitred joints then it's probably special/fancy enough to invite scrutiny.

My preference, FWIW, that enhances strength, eases glue-up and IMHO looks better is a splined mitre [in line with the joint] with a contrasting wood.

 

[Jacob]

....
However the joint won't be hidden on the exposed body/lid surface, and if you're doing a box with mitred joints then it's probably special/fancy enough to invite scrutiny.

Only of passing interest to woodwork enthusiasts IMHO.
Those whose interest is the box would probably prefer a stronger joint with the neat external appearance of a mitre. It's not a fake joint in any way, it's just a joint.

 

[andy king]

I think it's fairly easy to understand what Jacob's getting at, his part mitred joint allows for innaccuracy on the mitre angle and SOME innaccuracy on length. Like anything else it's probably easy once you're set up and used to doing them. Certainly glue-up would be a doddle.

However the joint won't be hidden on the exposed body/lid surface, and if you're doing a box with mitred joints then it's probably special/fancy enough to invite scrutiny.

My preference, FWIW, that enhances strength, eases glue-up and IMHO looks better is a splined mitre [in line with the joint] with a contrasting wood.

Yes, it may allow for some innacuracy, but on boxwork its all about accuracy as it's being scrutinised as you say - especially on such things as jewellery boxes. I can see it useful for toys and suchlike where they are likely to get a bashing.
What I did ask for was a walkthrough of how the joint is achieved (i'd like to see if the part of the joint where the mitre and rebate have an internal meeting point are as easy as said) and what tools and machines are needed to do it, but that was dismissed in the usual way...
A basic mitre is but one straight cut and with the use of a shooting board, can be made very accurately if your sawing is a tad out. Surely easier than the use of rebates and smaller mitres and the increased work in doing so I would say, especially if done by hand.
Modern adhesives are certainly strong enough for small mitres, and as mitres are cosmetic rather than structural joints, unlikely to be placed under huge stresses and strains in applications where they are commonly used.
Splines work well, but i'd guess on a jewellery box, where the pieces are likely to be relatively thin, tricky to get into a mitre joint.

Andy

 

[tomatwark]

When I make them if the are tall mitre the corners and them put a NO 0 biscuit in the part which is to be the lower part.

I cut them on the table saw or the spindle moulder but I don't cut all the way through, I normally leave about 2mm and then cut this with a tenon saw and clean the lip off with a sharp plane.

Doing doing it this way means you get the accuracy of a machine cut but also by leaving the little bit to do by hand the lid does not come off when you make the final pass.

I did this one I have just finished this morning this way.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Yes, it may allow for some innacuracy, but on boxwork its all about accuracy as it's being scrutinised as you say - especially on such things as jewellery boxes. I can see it useful for toys and suchlike where they are likely to get a bashing.

Can be as accurate as you want. Who are these box scrutineers? Next time you are in Harrods or similar take a look at some boxes (if you can find any). You may be in for surprise.

What I did ask for was a walkthrough of how the joint is achieved (i'd like to see if the part of the joint where the mitre and rebate have an internal meeting point are as easy as said) and what tools and machines are needed to do it, but that was dismissed in the usual way...

Do you really think I'm going to take several hours off just to set up a demo just for you? Do it yourself! If you get stuck just ask. :lol: :lol:

PS Nice box above. My joint is just another of many alternatives to Toms biscuit.

 

[Jacob]

Happy Christmas Andy.

Heres another option lifted from the net. You'd need special tooling for this of course. My joint is same but without the tongue and groove. NB It's not "my" joint - it's commonplace and used often.

 

[tomatwark]

Andy

I cut mine most of the time on the spindle, but sometimes do them on the saw.

I am really cutting a small groove at the end of the day.

That said I would NEVER recommend any one doing them on the saw unless they are very sure of what they are doing and I would never cut the lid in one go.

When I do them on the saw I fasten a piece of MDF to the box when making each cut to make the surface on the saw bench greater.

The other way I have done them in the past is on the router table using a grooving cutter again set to not cut all the way through.


Tom

 

[Jacob]

.......I would NEVER recommend any one doing them on the saw unless they are very sure of what they are doing and I would never cut the lid in one go.....

I used to do mine on a bandsaw, which is much safer than a TS. The lid just falls away, no problem. One pass, though I see the logic of that partial cut on a TS

 

[andy king]

Happy Christmas Andy.

Heres another option lifted from the net. You'd need special tooling for this of course. My joint is same but without the tongue and groove. NB It's not "my" joint - it's commonplace and used often.

Yes I'm aware of that joint, and the router or spindle cutter required to do it.


Tom, my comment on the use of a table saw relates to Jacob's comment on cutting the mitre part of his joint. That, as I read it, involves short pieces at the tablesaw, and maybe guard removed.
Very nice box BTW!

Andy

 

[Harbo]

Jacob wrote

My joint is same but without the tongue and groove. NB It's not "my" joint - it's commonplace and used often.

Funny that I have a book on box making which shows numerous ways of making joints but not that one - if it's so easy I wonder why?

I have a small Lock Mitre Joint cutter which produces a very good joint. It takes a bit of setting up to get it correctly positioned.
Mine was one of the smallest sized ones but needs at least 19/20mm thick pieces of timber (from memory) to work, so not really suitable for small boxes.

I use my table saw to cut the 45 and then trim using my Donkey's ear shooting board.
I have a few old mitre clamps but generally use a strap type.
I made a jig to cut the keys on the TS.

Rod

 

[Jacob]

....
Funny that I have a book on box making which shows numerous ways of making joints but not that one - if it's so easy I wonder why?.....

Wrong book obviously. It's in Joyce page 205. Called a "mitre lap" joint.
It's the next simplest improvement on a plain butt mitre.
The simplest is a glue block on the inside, but he's talking about architectural joinery rather than small boxes.

I use my table saw to cut the 45

Good grief! :lol:

 

[Digit]

My computer's playing up so this may be a repeat.
Rod, I got my lock mitre cutter from Big Ax, it works down to 10mm

Roy.

 

[jasonB]

Andy its so simple can you not work it out for yourself?

Say its 10mm thick timber.

Vertical board in Jacobs sketch
1. cut a 10mm wide by 7mm high rebate by whatever means you want router table would be accurate or a rebate block.
2. With a 45deg cutter in the router table mitre the remaining 3mm thick end or use the spindle, saw bench or shoot it by hand

Horizontal bard in his sketch

1. Cut a 3mm deep by 7mm high rebate in the end using any of the above methods
2. With a 45 deg cutter raised up in the table or spindle mitre the remaining 3mm of the end. Could be done with a saw and SUVA guard

To speed things up the two rebates would be done first then the two mitres.

Simples

One other point with theis joint if you are cutting a rebate for the top or bottom then have the rebate extend to cover the corner rebate, that way it will look like a mitred joint from above & below.

Jason

 

[Digit]

I'll stick with my locked mitres! :lol:

Roy.