Mentor Wanted

[johnnyb]

When I see posts like this I always consider how work of such truly amazing quality was achieved using simple tools. It's training by people who knew how to achieve this standard. Long and arduous as it was. I suspect a large dose of revising how long stuff takes(time=money) played a role with demand for fancier work pushing the entire process. Making a single perfect item is nearly impossible but make a dozen you will achieve perfection(now sell them!)

 

[Blister]

Some years back I offered woodturning guidance , Had 2 people ask to come along , I said yes , This was at my home workshop , The visits went on for about 4 weeks , Then one said thanks very much and siad he had learnt lots and would not attend again, I carried on with No 2 for several weeks , He then asked if I could sharpen some gouges for him , No harm I thought so said yes ok fine, The next time he turned up with a big sports kit bag , Strange ? , We did some turning,I went up to the house a couple of times to make drinks , I sharpened the 3 tools and off he went. No further visits or contact, Strange I thought?, At a later date I neede to use my pen press , Hunted high low and in-between , Not seen it since , Or him.

 

[NorthernSteve]

I might be easier to understand what you would like help with eg. machine use and setup, hand tool use and setup, material selection, design, sales and marketing?

Deema, you pose a very good question, “what exactly do I want support with?”. This has made me think. I will answer it the best I can, with the caveat that I don’t know what I don’t know, and as such, someone who does, should be able to see the gaps.

Things I would like to improve (in no particular order):

• Getting accuracy down to less than 0.5/0.25mm, avoiding those hairline cracks in joints and between sides and lids of boxes.
• Precision measurement & layout.
• Perfecting joinery.
• Anticipating movement when using different species and cuts – tangential and radial.
• Selecting timber to purchase.
• Design feedback – aesthetics, functionality
• Mastering tools – refining use of them
• Workflow organisation
• Veneer matching and precision band saw set up for resaw/ veneer cuts & inlay work
• Complex box design, multicompartment, hidden compartments, domed lids.
• Application of intricate mouldings, edge profiles
• Frame & panel construction
• Flush, aligned doors & drawers, precision hardware installation

I am sure there is more, but this will suffice for now and provide a flavour.

 

[NorthernSteve]

Some years back I offered woodturning guidance , Had 2 people ask to come along , I said yes , This was at my home workshop , The visits went on for about 4 weeks , Then one said thanks very much and siad he had learnt lots and would not attend again, I carried on with No 2 for several weeks , He then asked if I could sharpen some gouges for him , No harm I thought so said yes ok fine, The next time he turned up with a big sports kit bag , Strange ? , We did some turning,I went up to the house a couple of times to make drinks , I sharpened the 3 tools and off he went. No further visits or contact, Strange I thought?, At a later date I neede to use my pen press , Hunted high low and in-between , Not seen it since , Or him.

That is terrible, I would have hunted him down and made him pay. People never cease to amaze me - bad and good.

 

[NorthernSteve]

As a wooodworking college teacher, I value face to face education, in a workshop.
I’m not suggesting you sign up for a full time course, but perhaps you can find a short course that offers what you are looking for.
Lots of small business furnituremakers offer courses, for example intro to hand tools/furnituremaking, make a workbench, make a box. Lots of these around at 3-5 days. One of the colleges I work for also offers evening classes, which would also be a good option I think.
If you can these would be your quickest path to upskilling, as they can offer corrections on technique by reviewing what you are doing, offer all the tools and equipment you need to do the tasks etc.
another route is to pay to subscribe to an online programme, waters and ackland, Paul sellers et al. The useful reason to pay is because likelihood is higher that you are being taught the most sensible content.. YouTube or free education is a bit of a minefield, and needs sifting through with a fine tooth comb to figure if it’s actually appropriate.
I suppose the third and often overlooked option is to buy some books, and/or subscribe to magazines. Again, often you will find if committed to print, it’s probably worthwhile in some way.
You might not yet have the skills to discern if the free options (YouTube) are any good, as you may not yet know the optimum techniques. If you are committed to this path, try and apply a bit of simple critical analysis to the videos, for example are the achieving the results you desire ? Are they often cutting away, and magically coming back with a better looking piece that they haven’t demonstrated ? Read some of the comments and see if people are agreeing with them etc. You can pick up all you need on your own of course, but I have no doubt it will be a longer and at times much more frustrating journey.

As people have highlighted above, I liken learning furnituremaking to learning to drive a car, it’s only difficult because you have to do everything at once ! The skills (clutch control, operating the steering wheel etc) are mixed in with knowledge (speed limits, road signs) and alongside this you have to react to what’s happening in real time.
To liken this to what you are wanting to learn, if you break down the earning into excercises (I.e focussing first on measuring and marking out, then when you can achieve this best, moving on to sawing skills only etc) you will be less overwhelmed, and your improvements will not only be faster but also more reliable.
When learning skills like above, get cheap softwood, and only be critical on the amount you are doing for a start, not the end product. It’s practicing a new skill, so don’t spend a month trying to rectify one thing, try and do it right, if it’s not right throw it in the bin and do it again, and maybe make some notes about how and why it went wrong.

Good luck !

Thanks Sam, appreciated. I attended an evening course at a local college last year, c20 weeks. Whilst I made progress, I was disappointed. 15 minutes H&S in session one, then Tulip wood, photocopied page of a book - make a M&T, a DT, a Bridle joint etc. Did them ok but not to a high level, then week 4 select a project, provide a cut list and make it. No chalk and talk at all. Very limited advice on technique. I finished, submitted my writeup, gained the award, but no feedback on the report or the pieces I made. Was asked to submit both the pieces I made for a college exhibition attended by press and interested parties, did so. I guess I was unlucky in my selection, the course seemed too basic and certainly not 20 weeks worth - maybe 8 weeks. I will look at Waters and Acland and Paul Sellers and will also look for other opportunities. I am adamant that I will make progress. If only I was asking the same questions 100 years ago, I suspect there would be a whole host of bench joinery businesses in my locale.

 

[johnnyb]

Bench joinery and box making are very different one isn't necessarily more difficult than the other. It's just that your literally up close to a box and any cracks/imperfections shout "look" in joinery they shout "fill me"

 

[Jacob]

Deema, you pose a very good question, “what exactly do I want support with?”. This has made me think. I will answer it the best I can, with the caveat that I don’t know what I don’t know, and as such, someone who does, should be able to see the gaps.

Things I would like to improve (in no particular order):

• Getting accuracy down to less than 0.5/0.25mm, avoiding those hairline cracks in joints and between sides and lids of boxes.
• Precision measurement & layout.
• Perfecting joinery.
• Anticipating movement when using different species and cuts – tangential and radial.
• Selecting timber to purchase.
• Design feedback – aesthetics, functionality
• Mastering tools – refining use of them
• Workflow organisation
• Veneer matching and precision band saw set up for resaw/ veneer cuts & inlay work
• Complex box design, multicompartment, hidden compartments, domed lids.
• Application of intricate mouldings, edge profiles
• Frame & panel construction
• Flush, aligned doors & drawers, precision hardware installation

I am sure there is more, but this will suffice for now and provide a flavour.

Hmm that's a very detailed spec. Can't help thinking of music education - you probably can't start grade 8 Trombone etc unless you are at least up to 5.
Maybe work up from where you are, rather than going in the deep end?
Make some boxes now, as best you can, with the skills you already have, and build on that?
Learning craft skills is a continuous process and never ends.

 

[hennebury]

You need to understand wood, cutting tools, and the relationship between them. Get the books Cut& Dried and Understanding Wood a magnifying glass, jewelers loupe or microscope, a chisel and a handplane, and lock yourself in your workshop. Pickup a bunch of different wood species and study them, examine and describe them in minute detail, then cut the with the chisel every way you can, observe, analyze and take notes, refer to the book. see how they relate to water, wet them then dry them out , note what happens. Then destroy some, bend them, break them, twist them, crush them, hammer them experiment, observe, analyze. Refer to the book. Wood is not complicated to understand. All cutting tools are just chisels, rotary tools , table saw blades shapers, etc are just chisels on wheels. Play with a handplane, experiment with the chipbreaker. Precision measuring is easy, don't measure anything, use a knife and a story stick and transfer from the stock. Once you get this, absolute precision is simple project management, and the focus and discipline to follow the plan. Don't look ahead, don't look behind focus on what you are doing. you can have 10,000 operations to do in project, but wherever you are in that project, you have only one operation to do, focus 100% on that one knife-line or sawcut, when that is done, move on to the next operation in the plan. Piece of cake.

 

[thetyreman]

Hmm that's a very detailed spec. Can't help thinking of music education - you probably can't start grade 8 Trombone etc unless you are at least up to 5.
Maybe work up from where you are, rather than going in the deep end?
Make some boxes now, as best you can, with the skills you already have, and build on that?

having a music education helped me a lot with woodworking, they are fairly similar actually, master the basics first, including theory and it'll be so much easier, I started on grade 5 and worked my up to grade 8, same with music theory, but had already been studying it years before that. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

[woodbloke52]

There is much absolute and dangerous rubbish on UToob, but two very good, top drawer exponents are the late David Charlesworth and the huge series of clips from Rob Cosman in Canada. I spent much of yesterday acquainting myself with his drawer making series which is excellent - Rob

 

[Jacob]

having a music education helped me a lot with woodworking, they are fairly similar actually,

I thought that too. Music/woodwork you have to be able to make/play simple things well before you try more difficult things. If you push too hard you may end up playing/making difficult things, but not done well.

master the basics first, including theory and it'll be so much easier, I started on grade 5 and worked my up to grade 8, same with music theory, but had already been studying it years before that. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

[johnnyb]

Much music learning is strict dogma as well. Not always easy but pays off in the end. Your forced to do quite unnatural things that need to feel natural. Doing very simple things perfectly is a huge part of this. Some may never be able to do complex perfectly but simple can layer on simple to make something complex. It's that perfection that's the thing that can bring satisfaction. But when moving to complex be prepared to lose some satisfaction as its not quite perfect. Perfectionism can be an enemy at this point.

 

[Jacob]

There is much absolute and dangerous rubbish on UToob,

Yep

but two very good, top drawer exponents are the late David Charlesworth and the huge series of clips from Rob Cosman in Canada. I spent much of yesterday acquainting myself with his drawer making series which is excellent - Rob

But can't say I agree about either of these particular "gurus".

 

[woodbloke52]

Yep

But can't say I agree about either of these particular "gurus".

All so called 'gurus' have their pros n'cons Jacob and none of them is perfik although Sir David of Charlesworth's are a good for dozing off while you're watching his clips. RC is one of those 'gurus' who you either love or hate but his techniques are excellent (mostly). Both though, produce top class work - Rob

 

[Mrs C]

As per a previous post find a course, the tutor will often provide after support as well for someone that is really keen.

There are some things that are very difficult to learn online - like how square is square and how sharp is sharp. Having someone to critique you is invaluable.

However, be careful what you wish for with a mentor. I have a mentor who has forgotten more than I will ever know, however by his own admission is a rubbish teacher. He will either watch me do something and tell me I am doing it wrong AFTER I have finished, or can not bear to watch and do it himself. Both of which are seriously frustrating.

I have found a mix of learning resources is best. This forum is amazing, some YouTube (heroes like Peter Millard), some old books are good plus a course or two.

Small thought, have you got a local Men’s shed? Often full of very skilled bods willing to share knowledge.

 

[woodbloke52]

Small thought, have you got a local Men’s shed? Often full of very skilled bods willing to share knowledge.

In my limited experience, a MS is the last place I'd go - Rob

 

[Bingy man]

I’ve read most of the posts to this thread and the previous . The 1st request I thought as I have no formal training in woodworking of any type there is not much I can add or contribute to assist the op . But some of the advice says to practice, make mistakes, give it a go etc which reminded me ( that’s how I started ) there was no internet, no guru’s as such , no smart phones so you spoke with tradesman and if you were lucky you’d watch them work and learn from them . When young 14 + I’d work with builders for a few pounds, sometimes for nothing and my friends would laugh and jeer that I was being ripped off or conned but I learnt so much from these tradesmen the knowledge they passed on was priceless. Those mates who jeered now often call on me for repairs and improvements to their homes . Now I’m not a know it all but I can hold my own with small building projects and landscape gardening and plumbing and heating and gas installations obviously and then the basic electrical work, painting and decorating ,wood and some metal work so I often wonder if I’d trained in say cabinetry and joinery only how good would I be . But I’d rather be able to do lots of jobs really well and to a high standard than to only have a single skill ..so as above jyst jump in . I can’t agree more with learning by your mistakes and especially incorporating those mistakes into your work so they are no longer visible mistakes unless they are pointed out.. and also as above don’t make any mistakes with your digits …

 

[deema]

There are many approaches to box making, but to simplify it down for me there are two. Machine and pure hand made. If you’re looking to make a living at it, a mechanised approach is needed, if it’s just for the love of woodworking pure hand made is wounderful. The former needs investment in machines and learning how to use them which is fairly quick. The latter requires gaining the hours of experience to make something well. Which approach are you looking to take?

 

[NorthernSteve]

Hmm that's a very detailed spec. Can't help thinking of music education - you probably can't start grade 8 Trombone etc unless you are at least up to 5.
Maybe work up from where you are, rather than going in the deep end?
Make some boxes now, as best you can, with the skills you already have, and build on that?
Learning craft skills is a continuous process and never ends.

Jacob I particularly agree re the lifelong skills learning, and it is evident to me that some things I struggled with just 6 months ago, I can now complete to a satisfactory level. I have found this similar with other topics when advancing, read a book as novice and you will get some of the meaning, read the same book after some experience and a lot more can be derived from the same text.

 

[NorthernSteve]

You need to understand wood, cutting tools, and the relationship between them. Get the books Cut& Dried and Understanding Wood a magnifying glass, jewelers loupe or microscope, a chisel and a handplane, and lock yourself in your workshop. Pickup a bunch of different wood species and study them, examine and describe them in minute detail, then cut the with the chisel every way you can, observe, analyze and take notes, refer to the book. see how they relate to water, wet them then dry them out , note what happens. Then destroy some, bend them, break them, twist them, crush them, hammer them experiment, observe, analyze. Refer to the book. Wood is not complicated to understand. All cutting tools are just chisels, rotary tools , table saw blades shapers, etc are just chisels on wheels. Play with a handplane, experiment with the chipbreaker. Precision measuring is easy, don't measure anything, use a knife and a story stick and transfer from the stock. Once you get this, absolute precision is simple project management, and the focus and discipline to follow the plan. Don't look ahead, don't look behind focus on what you are doing. you can have 10,000 operations to do in project, but wherever you are in that project, you have only one operation to do, focus 100% on that one knife-line or sawcut, when that is done, move on to the next operation in the plan. Piece of cake.

View attachment 187513

I shall follow your suggestion and have such a session, I like it. As for free climbing, not for me ever! Happy to rappel but no rope - no way! Is that you, or is that a metaphor or both? Also brings back the words of Eckhart Tolle!