Mates Rates

[Geoff_S]

Has anybody any experience of this? And I mean people that are asked to work for "mates rates", split into two types I guess. Those that are actual professionals and people like me that do a good enough job that I am often asked to do jobs for people.

I retired 10 years ago and it was a bit surreal, the attitude of some people that I now had "nothing to do" and so would I like to do jobs
for them on "mates rates"?

The most outrageous was a new neighbour who was going to be away on business for a few days. His wife was panicking and insisted that she have a door lock fitted to the bedroom door. So he knocked on my front door at 2 o'clock on a Sunday afternoon and I, like an idiot obliged. There was already a handle on the door but he presented me with a handle and mortice lock affair. What a sh**e job that was, rebating into an already badly rebated cardboard door. Still, it got done and I was presented with a bottle of wine!

Well OK, I don't mind helping out and put that one down to experience (again). Mind you, it didn't stop him asking me to put some shelves up for him a few weeks later. I just said no, quite firmly, but I felt bad saying it. But it was when he said "I'll pay you" that my blood boiled a bit. I'm not sure why, but I think on the basis the he'll offer to pay, but only when I say "no". I didn't do it.

10 years on and a number of "mates rates" jobs later I now take the view that if someone is at work earning good money then I charge and it's not mates rates. If they want me to help and they are there working with me, or they are in genuine troubles, then it's a pie and a pint.

Has anyone anyone had any experience of this and any other solutions?

 

[t8hants]

My basic rule of thumb is, if I am asked to do my trade, then its the proper rate for the job. If I am asked to do something as an enthusiastic diy'r for want of a better term than its on the understanding it's not my trade, the end results are not guaranteed and it might take longer than a professional, so we negotiate.
For a true 'mate' whom I might have known for twenty years then that is often gratis, because he has almost certainly helped me out in the past so its quid-pro-quo.
In my lexicon there is a strong difference between a mate and an acquaintance.

 

[LancsRick]

Similar to t8hants, though I don't make any pretence that I'm a pro - I'm a very practical person who has done up places in the past and have a varied set of skills, but I'm still an amateur. I only tend to do stuff for mates, and usually work for food as long as they supply materials.

 

[Tasky]

Friend of mine (who I help out with sometimes) is a mechanic, who essentially works from home... although for tax purposes, the work takes place on the public street outside.
People come to him either because he's cheap and/or because he does very good work and will often cheaply fix the expensive part rather than just getting a new one.

Customers haggle ALL... THE.... TIME!!!
"OMG, that's a bit steep, innit? Is there anything you can do about that? What if I pay in cash?"
This over a £20 BMW brake disc, which costs £20 to buy at Trade prices, regardless of payment form... They're not even being charged labour, but still they'll harp on and on and on. I usually offer to fit the disc from a motorcycle instead - My FJ discs cost £160 each. They usually shut up at that point.

mod edit.

But every one of them will have slyly asked about "Mates Rates" at some point. First time customers are *clearly* not mates, but for some reason still think they can get special services or something.

We also have these t-shirts:

There are several other things I do well enough that people ask me to work on theirs - I charge nothing, as they actually are mates, and yet they would throw money at me if I let them. Usually I just charge favours, if anything.
If I don't want to do it, I politely decline.

 

[HappyHacker]

As t8ants said.

If I have a mate doing a job for me in their own profession I would normally expect to pay the going rate, if he is working for me he is not working for someone else and he will still have to pay the mortgage etc. If just providing labour as a favour its a beer token just as I would expect if returning the favour.

However I would expect a good job, to pay for the time to do the job and not to pay mark up on materials.

I also am now retired and do the odd job but I have enough of my own and daughters jobs to do to keep me busy so any jobs are at the going rate.

My mates can expect my advice for free as I expect theirs.

Having said that I do some work for the local church, village hall and elderly neighbours for free or at very discounted rates.

 

[Mike Jordan]

As a tradesman I have been able to call on the services of plumber, bricklayer, plasterer etc, on the basis that only materials are payed for and a similar number of hours have been worked in return. We all saved a lot of money and I have no idea who is ahead in terms of hours worked. Unfortunately many of the tradesmen involved have retired or dropped off the twig so I now have to get work priced by people I don't know. My observation is that there is a shortage of properly trained craftsmen, good quality work is still being done but the clowns who have watched a YouTube as a training are everywhere!
Prices are not calculated but simply snatched out of the air.

 

[Kieran62]

I decided about ten years ago that the only people who got "mates rates", were fellow tradesmen and my immediate family.
Fellow tradesmen is just a barter like system of hours, and the family is essentially free labour
If someone can't offer you something in return for mates rates, why should you bother reducing your labour rates?
Kieran

 

[Lazurus]

Very similar for artisan wood turners like myself. People see items created by professional turners then ask if I can make one for a few beers tokens, now I don't make a living from my hobby but I do resent that people think your a soft touch. I make stuff because I want to and that is a big difference. A recent example is a teak table for a boat, price at boat show £320, could I do it cheaper for them. Yes of course I can, no overheads as such and time to play, however I will charge a reasonable rate to cover costs and materials, but not "show" prices. Tradesmen who have to make a living get my support and I use them when I cant do something myself, I wouldn't haggle as I appreciate what is involved in most jobs, and the most expensive material is always time / experience. hats off to them.

 

[MikeG.]

Two great stories here. I drew a house alteration for a mate of mine for Mates Rates, and for a set price. It took over a year, and 26 different versions, before we agreed on the basic arrangements. SK26 was remarkably similar to SK1. By the time I got planning permission for them I was working at about £5 per hour. He then complained when I put up my mates rates by £5/ hour for the working drawings. He still thinks he's a mate.

My wife hand-made a wedding dress for a friend......hundreds of pounds of material and thousands of pounds worth of labour, even 25 years ago when she did it, and got a £20 voucher for a (horse) riding lesson for her troubles.

 

[AndyT]

Here's an answer from the other side of the transaction. I know a really good plumber and heating engineer.
When I wanted some tricky work done on our heating, I asked him to do it, but strictly on the understanding that he'd charge me full commercial rates for the job.
After all, he's still got to pay his apprentice, buy materials and cover his overheads. Why should I ask him to take cash out of his pocket and give it to me?

What I did get was a quality job, honestly done and properly explained to me. That's worth more than a discount!

 

[julianf]

Real friends get work for free.
If they're next to me, helping, or even learning, it gets done quickly.

If they're nowhere to be seen, the charge is still the same, but the time scale stretches to infinity.

I don't make profit from friends, and I do not expect them to profit from me.

I find life simpler that way, but I understand that it does not work for everyone.

 

[Kieran62]

Julian, if only the world was a Utopian paradise!
You have a lovely attitude to the situation, and I admire you for it; but when does doing a free favour for a friend cross over into someone taking advantage?
Do your friends pay for wear and tear on your tools; are you charging them for maintenance and damages?
I made a clear decision to stop 10 years ago, when someone who was a friend of my father (who'd been dead for eleven years at the time), asked me to help out on some building work on his house. I drew up some plans for free, that he could take to the L.A. I did the QS and arranged for the sparks and plumber to look over the job.
He then asked me to do the groundworks, and the brickwork, so I gave him a price that was about 20% less than the going rate. He immediately started whining about the cost, and when I wouldn't charge less proceeded to tell people in the village that I was ripping HIM off, a friend of my fathers and a pensioner! :shock

Kieran

 

[topchippyles]

Just use good old fashion common sense,Mates rates are for mates who will return the favour,If not then no mates rates apply.

 

[Lons]

Mostly what's already been said and now retired I give advice freely to anyone who asks as long as I don't feel they're taking a lend, some do! I flatly refuse work outside of mates and family, just say sorry I'm retired.

when in business I always gave a fairly detailed written estimate charged at reasonable rates which included a profit margin on materials. When asked for discount I refused saying the estimate was fair so it was take it or leave it. I very rarely lost work as customers I found wanted honest dealings and it worked for me. With one exception:

I was asked to clad the walls of a blockwork room inside an independant car main dealership. The room was used to spray underseal and he wanted the walls clad in polypropelene similar to other local projects I'd completed.
I gave him a detailed price, £1600 from memory and he tried very hard to get a discount so in the end I agreed to look at it. I put the price up to £1800 and discounted by £200 to give the same £1600 and he immediately accepted. When I pointed out what I'd done he said " no matter as long as I show a discount" :roll: It was the owner of the business btw so it still both amuses and confuses me! :lol:

 

[thetyreman]

just say no, I've learnt the hard way, they are likely users and not true friends.

 

[julianf]

Do your friends pay for wear and tear on your tools; are you charging them for maintenance and damages?

No, of course they don't.

I don't charge them for the tea bags either....

Ughh...think of all that money I'm missing out on!

Maybe I should fit a coin op door to the toilet, when I have friends round also? That loo roll doesn't pay for itself, you know.

Blimey - they're friends. By default, I think that entitles them to a little slack? Is that so crazy?

 

[Co1]

I either work for full price or for free. Proper mates pay materials only, no labour, everyone else pays full rate.

Someone once advised me on this many years ago. Half the rate equals half the effort, so charge full rate for a full effort job, or do it for free because you genuinely care about the person you are doing it for. No halfway.

 

[Kieran62]

Julian, I think it was a perfectly reasonable question.
I recently finished a bathroom for one of my brothers, he picked porcelain tiles even though I'd advised him against them, and I wore out two of these and had to buy a third to finish the job(https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-diam ... 80mm/51788). I think that is a bit different to a couple of tea bags and some loo roll!

 

[Keith 66]

I recently had a friend veneer some plain marine plywood with a fancier face veneer for a dinghy deck, He works in a factory with a big veneer press. So he did a splendid job for me. In return i did some gelcoat repairs on his yacht. time was similar so Fair exchange no robbery.
I have had many people try it on on the basis that they were a member of the same yacht club or whatever. I simply wont do it anymore. Any fool can work for nowt.

 

[julianf]

Julian, I think it was a perfectly reasonable question.
I recently finished a bathroom for one of my brothers, he picked porcelain tiles even though I'd advised him against them, and I wore out two of these and had to buy a third to finish the job(https://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-diam ... 80mm/51788). I think that is a bit different to a couple of tea bags and some loo roll!

Right, ok, if you've gone through three units, they're consumables really, rather than "ware on tools".