marking gauge, should the blade turn?

[pgrbff]

I bought a Veritas marking gauge many years ago but to be honest I have never used it preferring the Japanese type.
Should the blade rotate?
Pulling the gauge towards you tightens the screw so my blade is always clamped firmly still.
Am I missing something?

 

[Blackswanwood]

No, the blade shouldn’t rotate.

 

[IWW]

I've not used wheel gauges, but I would assume the wheel should stay fixed. As I see it, it would make it more difficult to cut a distinct line if the wheel can rotate freely. I use a cutting gauge with a fixed 'knife'. The cutter has an elliptical point so can cut whether pushed or pulled.


However, I usually push rather than pull marking gauges. With the gauges I make, it's easy to set the cutter at at a slight angle so it tends to pull the stock against the work. This means they are uni-directional, but the twist is very slight, so the gauge can be pulled if necessary, but you need to be a bit more careful to push the stock hard against the workpiece when pulling....
Cheers,

 

[D_W]

I personally prefer that it turn. I don't know if mine on the veritas does (it probably doesn't) but the original stanley gauges that I have, the wheel is not adjustable and it turns no matter what.

 

[pgrbff]

I would have thought it should turn, otherwise what is the point of it being a wheel?

 

[Droogs]

@pgrbff It's a wheel to allow you to work both internally and externally on curved work without having your wrist rotate 3060 degress as you do so. Think of marking a groove on the inside or outside of a wooden drum or demi lune table etc.

 

[pgrbff]

@pgrbff It's a wheel to allow you to work both internally and externally on curved work without having your wrist rotate 3060 degress as you do so. Think of marking a groove on the inside or outside of a wooden drum or demi lune table etc.

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I would be very surprised if this were the only reason a wheel was used rather than a blade, like a Japanese marking gauge. But a wheel is far easier to sharpen or replace.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

A wheel is simply a continuous blade. Rotate to a fresh edge.

Wheels in wheel gauges are not meant to turn. If they did turn, they would not cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

The wheels on older gauges turn, the blades are two bevel. I suppose using them properly is beyond the capacity of most hobbyists for reasons that are beyond me. The wheels turn, they leave a mark, they don't tear fibers unnecessarily and they don't get caught on things. They're superior to the modern gauges, but finding one in good shape for cheap is also not easy. If you're marking anything larger, the advantage of the turning wheel becomes clear - the gauge just works better, but it also doesn't leave a deep knife line because it's not a knifing gauge.

Everything I've ever marked that's curved, I would far rather have a rolling wheel as it would catch less in the mark. I had to modify a veritas small gauge to deal with a guitar a couple of weeks ago and it would've been far better working if the wheel turned as I was marking rosewood and tiny gauge with small foot and no turning of the wheel makes for more of a nuisance.

(this is, of course, a more general comment - not to imply that the veritas gauges should be screwed with to get the wheels to turn - just that the stanley 97 is a better general use gauge if you're not trying to score deep knife lines - for that, a wider face gauge is better, anyway. The 97 locks up securely and it leaves an even mark wherever it goes, and the knife wheel is double bevel and gets damaged far less easily. The veritas gauge has to be thumb tightened harder and sanded from time to time to keep its set, and it still loses it.

why a lot of this stuff gets changed from older gauges and is an "improvement" is something I've never followed - I guess the knife concept is easier for beginners and that's the market now. Unfortunately, the stanley gauges aren't the $10 or so that they cost when I found four different ones in an antique mall booth).

 

[IWW]

Different strokes for different folks.

The wide variety of wodwork done calls for a wide variety of setting out methods, so one person's setting out tools may be useless to someone else. I do very little curved work, most of my marking is done along straight sided pieces so a plain old pin gauge with a largish stock for good registration is my typical choice. A very sharp knife (or wheel) leaves a very fine line, which particularly on dark-coloured woods is a big challenge to my ageing eyes, and I prefer a pin gauge, for most marking along the grain, A sharpish point is easy to control but leaves a slightly more prominent mark.

When marking dark, hard woods cut lines can be very difficult to see, even for younger, keener eyes A useful trick we were taught in school is to wipe a pinch of french chalk across the surface after marking. On coarse-grained woods it may not improve matters much (too much chalk gets trapped in the pores & the line isn't as sharp & contrasty), but with fine-grained woods, it can be a great help. These lines were very hard to see from a working distance before they got the chalk treatment:



I use a knife or a knife gauge for cross-grain marking, but I also use my cutting gauges for scoring deep lines such as for hinge mortises or scoring shoulders for pared grounds etc., so I want my knives to cut, which led me to suggest I'd rather have the wheel fixed on a wheel gauge. However, I can see the point that if it turns freely, it will leave a very fine line with no tendency to tear fibres, but if I couldn't see the line, there wouldn't be much point!

If I did a lot of curved work, I think I'd be making tools specifically tailored to suit the job(s). There have been a few attempts to make "universal" gauges for curves, and they are still available. The one linked to is for outside curves, but there were several attempts to make gauges that could do both inside & outside curves, like the Blaisdell gauge shown here (scroll down the page a bit). In my mind's eye I can picture something I've seen, somewhere, with spring steel or brass 'scrolls' that could be adjusted to form a stock for inside or outside curves. I've never even held a gauge like this in my hand, let alone used it, but the one I'm picturing in my mind was a pretty cumbersome affair that would certainly not excite a guitar maker, I suspect.

I often mark curved bits (e.g. chair backs) by "finger-gauging" with a pencil, using my middle finger as the 'stock', which works well enough for my purposes (provided the opiece is relatively splinter-free!), but isn't much use if you want a scored line to prevent tear-out from a scratch-stock or whatever. I guess that's why purfling cutters were invented.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[D_W]

This was my exact thought, though I use a good grade of white pencil for dark woods - and I use a shallow line to make the pencil marks rather than a deep one (deep may persist, but it's not very bold).

The line that a stanley leaves is ideal for a pencil line. The line that the wheel gauges leave for dimensioning (which pretty much gets you right to finished size) is no good for this - you need something that a pencil tip will follow in.

I looked to see what the going rate is for stanley's 97 and 98 now (too much), but noticed some comments where people said "can I change this to the new type of wheel? Mine has a dull wheel".

They're a little dull from the factory from what I can tell - the point is that they'll leave a relatively fine shallow line, not follow grain and if you want to plane the line off, no problem. But they're dandy because if you're doing something where you need to be able to see the line well (resawing comes to mind), anything is better than a wheel, fine pin or fine knife gauge as you can quickly place a sharp pencil in the marking line, or even a pen, and drag it and have a very stark line).

The only problem with chalks and powders is if you have to be really sure they're all gone as some that don't show up to the naked eye will show up later under finish. Especially as wood darkens and ages.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Whilst I understand what you are saying, I would be very surprised if this were the only reason a wheel was used rather than a blade, like a Japanese marking gauge. But a wheel is far easier to sharpen or replace.

It’s so you can pick it up and just use it without needing to get angles or specific holding position. It is also nice to be able to roll it for the last mm or so up to a mark. It gives you much more control.
The wheel definitely should not rotate and be tight enough that it doesn’t unscrew when pushing.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The wheels on older gauges turn, the blades are two bevel. I suppose using them properly is beyond the capacity of most hobbyists for reasons that are beyond me. The wheels turn, they leave a mark, they don't tear fibers unnecessarily and they don't get caught on things. They're superior to the modern gauges, but finding one in good shape for cheap is also not easy. If you're marking anything larger, the advantage of the turning wheel becomes clear - the gauge just works better, but it also doesn't leave a deep knife line because it's not a knifing gauge.

Everything I've ever marked that's curved, I would far rather have a rolling wheel as it would catch less in the mark. I had to modify a veritas small gauge to deal with a guitar a couple of weeks ago and it would've been far better working if the wheel turned as I was marking rosewood and tiny gauge with small foot and no turning of the wheel makes for more of a nuisance.
...

David, what "older gauges" do is irrelevant. Or how you feel about them. Also irrelevant. That is not what the OP asked. The wheels on Veritas gauges do not turn. Neither do the wheels on Tite-Marks.

The wheels on these gauges do not tear wood fibres if they are sharp. Indeed, knives are more likely to do so as the cutters are thicker. Wheel gauges, if anything, leave a very fine line ... sometimes too fine.

No .. I'm not short of a few

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I bought a Veritas marking gauge many years ago but to be honest I have never used it preferring the Japanese type.
Should the blade rotate?
Pulling the gauge towards you tightens the screw so my blade is always clamped firmly still.
Am I missing something?View attachment 129898

You are spot on.

Many use a pin gauge (usually sharpened to a knife) by pushing it away from oneself. That works well (it also works as well pulling it towards oneself). However, if you use a wheel gauge like this, the screw will loosen.

As much as I like wheel gauges, Japanese knife gauges remain my favourite. It is horses for courses. The wheel gauges have more control, while the knife gauges cut more strongly, especially in end grain.

Two Kinshiros on the left. My absolute best. Colen Clenton on the right.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

Ah, yes, because nobody should have exposure to anything outside of what derek promotes. All hail derek, who magically pushes knives through long grain that others find can steer knife and fixed wheel gauges.

Or maybe he doesn't - maybe there's a lack of exposure. There's certainly one - there's more to life than marking dovetails and preparing drawers for photo opportunities, Derek.

 

[Ttrees]

Never noticed my wheel gauge cutters coming loose, not with the cheapie nor the new Veritas with the fine adjust which does come loose and needs an eye kept on it.
One might think that would be inviting this opportunity to have that happen,
(don't know why they don't just make these offset ones with a solid stem rather than a Parker pen thin walled jobbie)
No need for micro adjust when its a good fit.

Since I've got the Veritas now, I find it real handy for dropping onto the work,
or even making witness marks/routing to depth with.
The cheapie Axi knockoff Titemark, with loose stem and v groove is now used with the cutter flipped for the close side of the mortise,
(since the screw isn't countersunk for dropping on/bottoming out techniques, and cannot be interchanged with Veritas cutters)

.
I had things backwards for a minute, and thought the cutters were opposite,
so the bevel would push to the waste side, lol!
Not noticed this happening, as I am likely cutting shallower lines than what most want, as I find a deep line makes for a chippy edge.

Is it this scenario the talk is about where something else is better?

Tom

 

[D_W]

That's correct - if you're going beyond marking dovetails and mortises with 20 different types of gauges, you find the need to mark (or sometimes even cut thin stock) with marking or cutting gauges, and wood with dominant grain lines in long grain makes for a pain with a small face gauge and a fixed wheel.

Marking larger stock is better done either with a larger gauge or a rolling wheel (a pencil mark in the line after the fact - and quickly, not everything has to be prissy - and if you're cutting next to a line, you don't want to mistake grain and a thin line).

I doubt many people mark base lines on dovetails with a pocket knife, but a square and a pocket knife is more authoritative and faster than rolling gauges around (and doesn't require anything other than a straight edge on a drawer side).

- you mention the knock offs of the boutique wheel gauges - yes, they're even worse for keeping set. Stanley's 97 and 98 lock up shockingly tightly without mush thumb screw pressure, but the gauges have a channel in the side, which is probably some kind of tight fit for the screw.

Other than the opportunity to see derek once again trying to tell people what is or isn't relevant - one of his constant hobbies being telling people what they should or shouldn't post - this thread was a useful reminder that I've still got the wrong wheel gauge out.

 

[Ttrees]

I suppose this is why I don't have issue, as I use a pencil gauge for large stuff
like making things parallel and use the calipers/bench instead.

Not that I've marked from the end grain much with the wheel gauge, like for dovetails
i.e Cosman, but have noticed some discrepancy in my knife lines when using a square to knife around a shoulder.
Cosman seems to get this done pretty consistently, so I'll be using the wheel gauge on
small stuff like that when I get the chance.
Compared to knife and square
My thinking is the bevel of a knife here can have an opportunity to move a bit, when one places the knife on the corner to butt the square against.
speculation though, and I've never used anything but single beveled knives.

I've figured I'd rather use a mechanical pencil for these jobs, as I like to leave the line
on the work anymore, and not have to work down to it.
Not that the line always stays there, a fault of mine, which is kinda my point.

Tom

 

[D_W]

The pencil gauge is underappreciated. For really large stuff, I use two old gauges that have a rounded nail in them for a simple reason - they make a big mark and you can drag a dark pencil mark in them.

Out of curiosity, I went out and compared the stanley wheel gauge - to say it's easier to use is an understatement, but it also won't satisfy someone trying to make a deep knife line (any pocket knife with a sheepsfoot blade is great for that, and if the blade is double bevel, it doesn't try to climb squares, etc).

Would I spend $60 to find a stanley 97? Probably not. if you find one on the ground in a store for cheap, though - definitely.

The sharper knife type gauges would be nicer to use if the wheels rolled, especially in wood that's got hard rings (they will mark deeply in the soft stuff between the rings and roll over the hard rings instead of making a mess of everything).

 

[IWW]

Ah, yes, because nobody should have exposure to anything outside of what derek promotes....

Or ... maybe there's a lack of exposure. There's certainly one - there's more to life than marking dovetails and preparing drawers for photo opportunities, Derek....

That has a rather unnecessarily snide ring to it, David. I think Derek does a little more than make dovetails for show purposes. From what I've seen, he does very fine work and he also works with woods that I would find pretty challenging. My primary game is also cabinetmaking and unsurprisingly, we tend to choose similar marking tools for similar purposes, though my gauges are all home-made & a couple are a bit quuirky.

The best gauge for anyone to use is the one(s) that seem most logical & best for them, & frankly, if you allow for the conditions I don't think it matters a damn whether wheels rotate or remain fixed, if you use pin or cutting points, or push or pull them. The width & depth of a line is entirely in the user's hands because you can modify any sort of cutter to make the width of line you prefer and you control the depth of the line. It doesn't take all that long for anyone with a hint of dexterity to learn to hold a gauge so it doesn't "track" in coarse woods (of which we have an abundance on this continent), and it doesn't take long to learn how to make cross-grain marks without tearing fibres too much with a modified pin, should you choose to do it that way. For the first 20 years or so of my 'serious' woodworking I used a single 'pin' gauge with a modified 'chisel' point as we were shown in school in the 50s. These can be used quite successfully for long & cross grain marking. If I were forced to have but one gauge, that is what I would have, but I readily agree such a jack-of-all-trades is not master of them all.

I'm starting to sound like Jacob, but folks do have a tendency to make the simple complex at times.....

Cheers,
Ian